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Thread: Goodbye ATI

  1. #151
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    Oct 2010
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    Exclamation [Rant] Another one that joined the green "Club"...

    I know this thread is a bit dead now, but I've read it quite some time ago and I'd like to share my 2c.

    After almost 15 years using AMD/ATI cards (on both Windows and Linux OS's), now I'm stepping out too... My laptop with a Radeon HD 2600 burned and I urgently needed a new laptop.

    First of all, thanks to M$ and Intel, 99% of laptops (at least in Portugal) have hybrid c****y muxless graphics. So, if you want performance on a laptop, you're forced to use either nVidia Optimus or ATI BACON. That was my first obstacle on Linux, as nobody could ask me if ATI muxless was supported or not on Linux (and I didn't want to change the distro I was using (Arch x86_64)). So I chose a laptop with nVidia optimus (as it seems I can make it work more or less properly with bumblebee+bbswitch (I'm going to rant about this later...)).

    Secondly, my scientific apps (MATLAB, for instance) use specifically CUDA and not OpenCL (I think it's a shame, but that's developers fault too...).

    Finally, and now my "rant":

    a) 6 years later and we still don't have proper support using FOSS drivers or Catalyst. It's very basic at best. Power management is AWFUL (on desktops that's not a problem but that kills a laptop's battery life). 3D performance is still BAD (I don't know how nouveau has managed to catch up radeon in terms of 3D performance, is it due to ATI graphics architecture being much more difficult to program?). 2D acceleration, although works for basic compositing and such, I STILL can't use it for decoding basic things such as Full-HD videos on Linux (XV s***s btw). On lower-power systems such as ultrabooks, netbooks and HTPCs (with AMD APUs, OC), that should've been AMD's nr.1 priority on Linux, as a lot of people use HTPCs and netbooks for watching videos, without caring about codecs. Even on such c***y systems that use GPUs such as Intel HD2xxx/HD3xxx, I've better 2D support than any of ATI current solutions. I won't blame Bridgman and other ATI/AMD/Xorg Linux developers (such as Alex Duscher or agf5d), as I recognize their hard work for trying to make ATI/AMD hardware useful on Linux, (and I really know how hard must be be programming os ASICs), but they're doing something almost "impossible".

    b) I'm also going to rant about Linux users' mentality because I simply don't understand this. A company that has fulfilled to support its hardware by releasing documentation to linux developers, why there's almost no one supporting / helping them after 6 years? Furthermore, when things go wrong why are 99% of the time ATI/AMD developers the ones to blame? To support my argument, I'll talk about the sorry situation of muxless hybrid graphics + Proprietary Drivers: I know that AMD/ATI has been trying to support muxless ATI+Intel hybrid cards with Catalyst. If it was AMD/ATI that wouldn't support (hybrid graphics) I bet no one would try to help them make it work on Linux. But in nVidia's case, no! That's always someone's else fault... Not nVidia's fault for not listening to its users... And the biggest irony is that community has done a great work trying to support nVidia optimus with both nouveau and nVidia's proprietary driver. And where's someone trying to make things work, for instance, in my distro of choice (Arch Linux) (or other distos), when ATI proprietary drivers already give us some kind of support to AMD+Intel muxless laptops? (Vi0L0, I think you should see Chakra's PKGBUILDs for using a recent Catalyst with PowerXPress on a Arch-based distro). It seems Linux users mentality didn't almost change albeit ATI committed support for providing documentation to the Linux community, and that s**ks.

    Summarizing, these situations made me buy a Mid-to-High-End laptop with a nVidia optimus GFX (GeForce 555M). I'm really sad to abandon ATI's "ship", but there were some constraints that forced me to do it.

    My 2 cents, and sorry if I was harsh.
    3V0LUT10N

    p.s.: I wish the best of luck for ATI/AMD open-source driver developers...

  2. #152
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    38

    Cool Good for you

    For some reason I keep buying cheap computers like my Acer 722 that have ATI video. It's always a struggle too.

    I think that if enough people tell them "good bye" they will make a better driver.

  3. #153
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    Aug 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by homerhomer View Post
    For some reason I keep buying cheap computers like my Acer 722 that have ATI video. It's always a struggle too.

    I think that if enough people tell them "good bye" they will make a better driver.
    Doubt that, AMD clearly isn't interested in their Linux-userbase. Releases of documentation is nice, but it feels more like AMD is trying to make others do THEIR work. It's their hardware afterall.

    Linux-userbase is nothing compared to Windows gaming-community which is the biggest income for AMD when it comes to Radeons.

    Generally AMD-hardware works ok in Linux if 2D is ONLY thing you need, but that's not the case with many users. I switched to Nvidia GTX560Ti from RadeonHD4850 with my computer-upgrade in august 2011 and it sure made things lots easier.

    Also, dunno what's with certain person's claims & absurd lies in this topic. Looking the world through AMD-glasses (or with any fanboy-glasses) isn't very healthy.

  4. #154
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    Mar 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    I finally switched to NVidia (I ordered a GTX 560 Ti). [blah blah childish ranting]
    You create a thread to tell people that you're parting with ATi products..? You mean absolutely nothing in general, no offense, but it's true. No one cares about your daily life inquiries except for your friends and family, and you're 1 out of millions of ATi users. Your ego level is too high, but so is mine for registering here just to post this. I guess we're kind of even. Okay, this is creepy, gotta go.

  5. #155
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    Oct 2010
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by evolution View Post
    First of all, thanks to M$ and Intel, 99% of laptops (at least in Portugal) have hybrid c****y muxless graphics. So, if you want performance on a laptop, you're forced to use either nVidia Optimus or ATI BACON.
    No, that is true only if you want both performance and an Intel CPU.

    Quote Originally Posted by evolution View Post
    That was my first obstacle on Linux, as nobody could ask me if ATI muxless was supported or not on Linux
    You wanted to say nobody could answer? I have no interest in switchable graphics, but from reading the comments here on Phoronix it looks like AMD is the only one even trying to support them on Linux, and it actually works.

    Quote Originally Posted by evolution View Post
    (and I didn't want to change the distro I was using (Arch x86_64)).
    What's the distribution got to do with the drivers? It can only affect how easy it would be to install/configure those drivers.

    Quote Originally Posted by evolution View Post
    So I chose a laptop with nVidia optimus (as it seems I can make it work more or less properly with bumblebee+bbswitch (I'm going to rant about this later...)).
    It sounds like you enjoy a good chalenge

    Quote Originally Posted by evolution View Post
    Secondly, my scientific apps (MATLAB, for instance) use specifically CUDA and not OpenCL (I think it's a shame, but that's developers fault too...).
    Well, you could either blame the developers or blame yourself for choosing to use it, but not AMD.

  6. #156
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
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    @evolution

    Just pick a laptop with a single GPU. Be it older Intel cpu + discrete, current AMD cpu, current Intel cpu without discrete. They haven't exactly disappeared from the market.

  7. #157
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    Oct 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ansla View Post
    No, that is true only if you want both performance and an Intel CPU.
    Yes, that was what I wanted. I needed the best performance available for a laptop, so I bought one with an Intel processor + dedicated (nVidia) graphics card. Furthermore, some of my programs only work on Window$ (no money for Linux software licences in my university) and CUDA ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansla View Post
    You wanted to say nobody could answer? I have no interest in switchable graphics, but from reading the comments here on Phoronix it looks like AMD is the only one even trying to support them on Linux, and it actually works.
    I know about it, I even said the work done by ATI/AMD/Xorg developers is really the best they can do for the resources currently available for Linux graphics drivers... But currently I'm not interested in using open-source drivers in a recent laptop, because, as I said before, it would "fry" my laptop (and battery life), and, I had to do disable the ATI graphics card if I wanted to use Linux properly, being left behind with a (crippled) low-end GPU on Linux (Intel HD3000). And I'm interested in having some 3D/GPGPU performance... Btw, my distro has documentation and gives some help for hybrid nVidia+Intel users, whereas there's no documentation for hybrid Intel+AMD users... and that was a factor I took in consideration...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansla View Post
    What's the distribution got to do with the drivers? It can only affect how easy it would be to install/configure those drivers.
    Well, it depends from the distribution you use. For instance, in ubuntu and gentoo, you can install the proprietary Catalyst driver and use a tool such as "update-alternatives" or "eselect-opengl" to switch to the proper libGL library (mesa or ATI proprietary), whereas on the distro I use (Arch Linux), you've to symlink to the right libGL library each time you switch the graphics card, and that's not an easy thing to do... (Arch Linux Catalyst package maintainer has quitted to support catalyst with PowerXPress because of that, it seems... )

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansla View Post
    It sounds like you enjoy a good chalenge
    Well, I installed Arch (in dual-boot) and followed its guide of Bumblebee and I've everything working properly (even power management)... For me, the guide was almost trivial. And yes, I really like challenges!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansla View Post
    Well, you could either blame the developers or blame yourself for choosing to use it, but not AMD.
    Well, I didn't blame AMD, as you can see in my first post in this thread. I'm blaming Linux Community -> HW developer relationship (not AMD FOSS driver developers) for not changing after 6 years of AMD OS efforts, I think there are "two weights, two measures" for AMD and nVidia, and Linux community still doesn't treat AMD fairly enough altough they have been providing documentation about their hardware in order to develop FOSS drivers. Furthermore, it seems FOSS nVidia (nouveau) drivers, even being reverse-engineered, are already catching-up AMD's OS efforts, and that's not a good thing for AMD.

    Furthermore, and as an informed consumer (I hope so), I buy my computers based on hardware, not "brands"... And I'm a bit sad of having to abandon AMD this time (the first one since my first computer), but when Linux community, the programs you use and the distro you want to use don't help you, sometimes you've to "change sides"...

    Finally, and BTW, I still have an old desktop with a HD4650AGP, and if someone wants help with AMD/ATI cards (with Catalyst), give me a call...

    Cheers

    p.s.: I appeal to Vi0L0 (if he still reads Phoronix threads), to look at the Chakra's CatalystPXP PKGBUILD to give support for AMD+Intel hybrid muxless laptops on Linux. I can't test it because I've switched sides, but it might be useful for people trying to use Intel+Catalyst on newer laptops...
    Last edited by evolution; 03-27-2012 at 12:15 PM. Reason: adding info

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy View Post
    You create a thread to tell people that you're parting with ATi products..? You mean absolutely nothing in general, no offense, but it's true. No one cares about your daily life inquiries except for your friends and family, and you're 1 out of millions of ATi users. Your ego level is too high, but so is mine for registering here just to post this. I guess we're kind of even. Okay, this is creepy, gotta go.
    So true. I am a regular reader here but i usually don't care to comment, i saw this a few weeks ago and wanted to say the same thing but didn't bother. Getting older/more mature usually means that you simply don't waste your time trying to put such persons in their place.

    For what is worth, i am of the opinion that if someone wants to play the latest AAA PC games properly should have and AMD gpu paired with a Windows 7 desktop computer. Anything else is a waste. AMD simply has better hardware, and no amount of usual NVIDIA trickery will convince experienced gamers otherwise. But with todays gaming industry, even that is a total waste. Just buy an XBOX 360 and you are set. No need for a gaming pc anymore, all games are ports.

    If you have Linux and want to game, then you are doing it wrong. Even the latest Wine doesn't support properly all games, has bugs, and a big performance hit compared to native Windows. Native Linux games suk and you don't need a 560Ti for them.

    For every other Linux use case, the open source radeon drivers are fine. And are becoming better with every new release. Plus will enable amd users to jump to Wayland as soon as it is ready. So unlike the OP, i will continue to buy only amd GPU/APUs in the near future and will promote those to people, both for Windows and Linux usage.

  9. #159
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    Everyone has the right to express his opinions publicly. I will not be censored, nor silenced and I will speak my mind freely. If what I say happens to trigger a fanboi reflex in you, I couldn't care less.

    If others are allowed to post reviews and opinions about various products, so am I. Just because my name isn't Tom's Hardware doesn't mean that I have no right to make my thoughts public. My post expressed my disappointment with the functionality of a range of products I was using and how changing to another vendor's product improved things for me.

    If anyone here thinks that doing so is wrong, too bad. The Internet supports and encourages the exchange of information and opinions. If you can't stand that, then go away. Nobody will miss you.

  10. #160
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    Dec 2008
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    Default The devs are to blame

    The reason ATI has lost the war is that their drivers are so bad.

    The closed source drivers cannot be changed. And neither apparently can the open-source ones. Because every single person who has tried to contribute to the driver has been sidelined.

    So anyways to cut through all the crap let's get real here. Micro$oft own AMD's ass and they, like every other MS "partner" are doing their bit to make sure linux never, ever succeeds on the desktop.

    This is not about anything except AMD carrying out their corporate policy. And this board is one of the public-facing elements of their strategy.

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