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Thread: Mono 2.11 Release Brings Many Changes

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by elanthis View Post
    These are also the people who think that LLVM is an Apple project, or that Clang will be mysteriously closed up some day screwing over everybody despite the fact that Clang started life as an internal proprietary Apple tool which Apple then released under the LLVM license specifically because it believed it was the right thing to do and the best choice for the project (and it has been, as now tons of other people and companies like Google and Linux companies backing Gallium are all contributing tons of code to Clang that helps out both Apple and everyone else).

    tl;dr version: people are stupid.
    And clang can be closed up some day and your fanboism won't help anything. The part about "Apple then released under the LLVM license... was the right thing to do" is pure bullshit. GCC is used in many more cases, so following your "logic" the right thing to do is to release it under GPL. People are stupid.

  2. #12
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    News for those of us that don't write fart-apps:

    Java SE 10 and beyond will have a unified type system
    Self-tuning JVMs are coming
    JVMs will soon be hypervisor-aware.
    Java 10 will have true generics and multidimensional arrays
    GPU support will come in Java 9, though I fear that we'll have to wait for Java 10 for it to become truly useful.
    Oracle is looking at switching to OpenJDK as their primary development stack.

    F

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by elanthis View Post
    Linux desktop ecosystem that is being politically forced into using antiquated and dev-time-inefficient languages and toolkits
    Lol how the f*ck is anyone 'politically forced' into using any languages on Linux? Lol, it's the platform where you are certainly NOT forced either by political nor platform lockin means to use any particular programming language, EVERYTHING is available and there's no goddamn lock-in app store or any other artificial barrier forcing you to use a specific framework in order to be allowed on the platform.

    You are a f*cking baby who claims it's all some 'political conspiracy' because people don't think your goddamn pet language/framework is the second coming of christ and then you have the gall to complain about other people bitching and whining when you do nothing but bitch and whine, you hypocritical assh*le.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by XorEaxEax View Post
    Lol how the f*ck is anyone 'politically forced' into using any languages on Linux? Lol, it's the platform where you are certainly NOT forced either by political nor platform lockin means to use any particular programming language, EVERYTHING is available and there's no goddamn lock-in app store or any other artificial barrier forcing you to use a specific framework in order to be allowed on the platform.

    You are a f*cking baby who claims it's all some 'political conspiracy' because people don't think your goddamn pet language/framework is the second coming of christ and then you have the gall to complain about other people bitching and whining when you do nothing but bitch and whine, you hypocritical assh*le.
    Elanthis is just a proprietary fanboy who has no clue about reality. He proved this after writing about security and games. The only barrier regarding mono is it didn't prove it brings advantages.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    Elanthis is just a proprietary fanboy who has no clue about reality. He proved this after writing about security and games. The only barrier regarding mono is it didn't prove it brings advantages.
    Why are you building the same strawmens over and over. You ask: give a case of Mono to have advantages, but you never accept one! And given just one advantage is enough to prove its existance!
    There are a lot of cases where Mono was and is still used, from (smart)phones to servers, and on the way includes the Linux desktop.This is why C# is higher rated than C++ in TIOBE index: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html (as of time of writing).
    And I know, is about proprietary folks that are taking here, right?
    I work(ed) in OSS, with .Net and yes, is possible. Is not as major project that you may think, but it give the very same thing you asked for: CAD software. It does not work for Linux and I know that no one worked hard enough to port it for Linux, but the core code could theoretically once work on Linux.
    In comparison, there are a lot of reasons why a C# platform would bring advantages, you may heard about them, one of them is the GC. You may like Java more, and is fine about it. You may like type inference (yes, I know is a part of C++ 11), reflection, and so on. And yes, maybe the revision C++ 2021 would bring all these features in C++, and you will wait 5 more years to be supported by all mainstream compilers before writing code with Linq.
    TIOBE index proves that the 6th platform is an interpreter (PHP), after that a low end compiler (Visual Basic), then JavaScript, then Python.
    The combined percents of users of first 10 languages, comparing managed (with a virtual machine or a runtime, different than libStdC++ or native) against native ones, you will see that managed languages are more used (by a small margin) in todays software.
    C# as language, after Java is the second most popular language using a virtual machine, doesn't seem to you that it is used almost everywhere, or at least is fairly useful for normal people?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    Elanthis is just a proprietary fanboy who has no clue about reality. He proved this after writing about security and games. The only barrier regarding mono is it didn't prove it brings advantages.
    Their integration with KDE is bad and most of their applications just assume you use GNOME.

    that's the major reason I won't touch it.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    Why are you building the same strawmens over and over. You ask: give a case of Mono to have advantages, but you never accept one! And given just one advantage is enough to prove its existance!
    Some paint like program isn't so interesting, don't you think? It doesn't show advantage, because there are many such applications written in different languages. Try to compare mono applications to entire KDE and Gnome stack and it can be said mono apps doesn't even exist on Linux. Mono had it chance, because it was shipped with Ubuntu, but Canonical decided to drop it from some reason. There are few things why I am against mono, but the most important one it never prove to be better than current stack on Linux. Theory must be proven if mono wants to become meaningful. Too bad .Net nearly doesn't even exist on Windows if we're talking about serious (desktop) things. 99% of games and professional applications aren't written in .Net

    There are a lot of cases where Mono was and is still used, from (smart)phones to servers, and on the way includes the Linux desktop.This is why C# is higher rated than C++ in TIOBE index: http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/conte...pci/index.html (as of time of writing).
    I'm talking about desktops and not about mobiles or servers. Java is heavily used on mobiles and servers, but it also nearly doesn't exists when comes to desktop applications.

    And I know, is about proprietary folks that are taking here, right?
    I work(ed) in OSS, with .Net and yes, is possible. Is not as major project that you may think, but it give the very same thing you asked for: CAD software. It does not work for Linux and I know that no one worked hard enough to port it for Linux, but the core code could theoretically once work on Linux.
    In comparison, there are a lot of reasons why a C# platform would bring advantages, you may heard about them, one of them is the GC. You may like Java more, and is fine about it. You may like type inference (yes, I know is a part of C++ 11), reflection, and so on. And yes, maybe the revision C++ 2021 would bring all these features in C++, and you will wait 5 more years to be supported by all mainstream compilers before writing code with Linq.
    TIOBE index proves that the 6th platform is an interpreter (PHP), after that a low end compiler (Visual Basic), then JavaScript, then Python.
    The combined percents of users of first 10 languages, comparing managed (with a virtual machine or a runtime, different than libStdC++ or native) against native ones, you will see that managed languages are more used (by a small margin) in todays software.
    C# as language, after Java is the second most popular language using a virtual machine, doesn't seem to you that it is used almost everywhere, or at least is fairly useful for normal people?
    If this will be proven by reality and thanks to c# Windows applications will be ported to Linux it will have a big impact on my opinion. I have no reasons to not believe you, but I didn't see the results yet. In conclusion it's not that I'm always against mono, but as far my experience with mono projects and their forks (which was better) didn't convince me. If mono brings many advantages companies like Red Hat should give it a try someday. I must admit I like discussing with you, because you're sane.
    Last edited by kraftman; 03-24-2012 at 04:55 AM.

  8. #18
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    "Some paint like program isn't so interesting, don't you think?"
    - if you mean about Pinta here, I'm sure that as usable pictures processing program for human beings, I don't know any equivalent of these features in any Linux application that is portable too (so I can get a picture edited in Linux and retouch it once again at work with Windows). Pinta is like a low end Gimp, with usability of Paint (meaning that most people can grasp it).
    "Try to compare mono applications to entire KDE and Gnome stack"
    - I can replace Mono with any word you would like, it can be: SQL, KDE's Plasma and its plasmoids, GtkMM (as I don't know so many GtkMM applications), XUL, Python, Pascal, Php, Java, JavaScript, or maybe Objective-C and all will fail on this criteria, isn't so? Should we ditch them all together?
    "Too bad .Net nearly doesn't even exist on Windows if we're talking about serious (desktop) things"
    - did you looked in the MS Office stack? Is it MUCH easier to write an office plugin for Office 2010 with .Net (as is 32/64 bit independent) than with C++. In fact a lot of Office, Visual Studio is written in .Net. The WAY to customize the next version of VS is to use MEF 2.0 which is a .Net framework. The same happens about Windows services, you write much shorter code to work with them. In real code I know a lot of old codebases which use C++.Net to call C# web services, and use C++ to maintain the old codebase (which you cannot throw it out).
    "99% of games and professional applications aren't written in .Net
    " - but this can happen for a lot of reasons, including like licensing already made engines, but a lot of those game engines have a lot of tooling made in .Net/Java/Python (like this screenshot of Neverwinter Nights 2 editor bundled in its DVD). Also some of popular somewhat demanding games today (i.e. Magika, Minecraft) have some VM based code (which is not server side). In fact there was from time to time game engines cores that were written in Java (IL-2 Sturmovik from 2001 was written in big parts in Java, game which was highly praised, or XPand Rally have the SDK for customizing the game using Java, I don't know if the game had written 5% or 25% in Java, but proves that Java can be used in games, so .Net can be used too) or in .Net (Sims 3 scripting).
    Also, even Mono/.Net would not be capable at all to make games, that would simply make it to not write AAA games. This doesn't make it undesirable to not write desktop applications, or to not be on Linux. I never sow a Bash-based 3D game, and I'm sure that I will not see any of them soon, but it doesn't make it to not exist on Linux, right?
    "If mono brings many advantages companies like Red Hat should give it a try someday."
    - in fact they give it a try, it is in official repository of Fedora. Tomboy was a part of Fedora until GNote appeared. But not only Mono, but a lot of the tooling to make Mono applications. Is not by default on Fedora CD, but certainly Mono is not a panaceea. Is better than MP3 format support, in comparison, that you have to register to separate repositories.
    At the end if you mean about RHEL, and RedHat as a corporation, I think they are not necessarily against Mono, but they are a big supporter of virtualization and Java applications stacks (because they own JBoss), and I am aware of Java's stack and you have a lot of equivalents in Java world of the .Net classes (some historically were appeared in Java first later made into .Net, like NUnit, Ant build system).
    At the end I know companies that they use .Net (or Java for that matter, because 5 years in the past had the same criticism) for simplifying the deploying or simpler automation and working environment. Do you want Unicode? Which Unicode format you want to use? UTF-8? UTF-16? Java/.Net/Mono handle everything for you. Do you want type-checked build automation, most likely you would want to use Ant (or Nant). Is easy to make an XML that you can validate upfront that some build issues would not appear because a person mistype a script line.
    Last edited by ciplogic; 03-24-2012 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Fixed link, using QUOTE tag

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    99% of games and professional applications aren't written in .Net
    I forgot to answer about desktop applications, which are not games
    There are a lot of .Net professional grade desktop applications. Or Java ones. Most of the mainstream applications that you know them from 90's are written in C/C++ because is hard to remove the old code without a replacement. But Eclipse RCP (Rich Client Platform) is used in a lot of "professional grade applications". Other may use Adobe AIR (like the HTC Sync I use to work with my mobile phone, and yes, it depend on .Net), or may use to one platform Qt and on other .Net (I'm talking about AMD's Catalyst Control Panel). It was already told on other post on a forum, most major CAD players offer .Net SDKs (AutoCAD, SolidWorks, Rhino), 3D modellers (3dsmax) - a field I was related with. I know other software packages that use for example Java because it uses better Database connectors, even they are C++ SDKs (Embarcadero's database management tools), or they use just for a sub-feature. I recommend to see about Microsoft tooling (which is using .Net in most of cases, and embeds the C++ core in an embedded window, like Expression Blend) or IBM/Oracle tooling (which is Java based, like Eclipse/NetBeans Rich Client Platforms, for example: IBM's Lotus Symphony was Eclipse based).
    Why 99%? And if you mean that the applications have to be fully written in C# (or any .Net based language), I think no developer today uses one language (excluding is a very old codebase). People use HTML5/Javascript/CSS, or Java/JavaFX/SQL/Xml or C#/Xaml/Xml/SQL most of the times.
    In software like time critical software, C++ may be desirable, and I know people using Java in time-critical software (just if given the opportunity to warmup and tune the VM). London Stock Exchange is written in Java (as replaced .Net) but they did not went to C++. Why? If you think that because the database code is written in C++, so this is why they get this huge speedup, they use Oracle, and the time-consuming part of querying of Oracle's DBs is written in Java too.
    To say that 99% are written in native code, is bogus. Sometimes you wouldn't want that, you don't want to have big binary for some small code that do update your repository, when is clearly that the slow part of the operation may be the internet connection. Most big applications I know, they combine frameworks, so they would want to see which framework solve what and if is easier to use C# way, the developer would pick the C#, if is the C++ way, would pick C++, and so on. Most of Disk Defragmenters today are made in Delphi (bleah, I dislike the language and the IDE) or C#. You may not care about this, but it is certainly that the disk is the 50 times slower than any C# code, so speeding the C# code rewriting it in C++, would give to you for a 10x speedup supposedly that you may achieve with C++, a per application 1-2 % speedup (even less!).
    WPF applications are fairly fast (given are well written, after they do start up) as they use technologies that appeared accessible in C++ (Direct2D like) later with Windows 7. I recommend to try (if you use Windows) these tools that are free. Try them and say if you notice a too slow speed. I do know that they have some C++ code in the back, but they are mainly written in C# and I don't feel it this (excluding I would use XP and will ask me to install .Net to finish the installer).
    Last edited by ciplogic; 03-24-2012 at 12:56 PM.

  10. #20
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    Default Mono?

    well!... who cares? really. This platform is kind of useless...

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