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Thread: Mono 2.11 Release Brings Many Changes

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
    well!... who cares? really. This platform is kind of useless...
    I care... as I use Banshee as my music player.
    If you wanted to show you're rational, you can replace any words with their 5 years before technology: subpixel hinting (anti-aliasing) for fonts, 3D, Compiz, working 3D video drivers, who cares? Qt... who cares? A toolkit on top of X? Who cares? XTerm is a living proof that we could survive without any fancy graphics. X- we can draw directly using a framebuffer, who cares? Classes to separate real and big codebases? We can simulate in C, who cares about C++? Xml, who cares? Ini files and binary ones are both faster, so who cares about validating Xmls?
    And so on, are too many areas that we take them today for granted and I think we should be really respectful for anything that is given more or less for free (as in beer at least) as a lot of these things are made with a lot of hard work. I'm sure that you are using a browser so advanced that it can likely make some parts of the program to run close to C performance because they have a Just-In-Time compiler, and you just read a text using sub-pixel hinting and if you can read this forum and you're not using a lynx browser, you can see it with CSS (why someone whould need a themed site, so who care about theming capabilities!?).
    Note: don't troll, is not fun, is not smart

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    I care... as I use Banshee as my music player.
    Yeah, banshee and tomboy are two great 2Mb apps that are worth 500Mb of microsoftie crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    If you wanted to show you're rational, you can replace any words with their 5 years before technology: subpixel hinting (anti-aliasing) for fonts, 3D, Compiz, working 3D video drivers, who cares? Qt... who cares? A toolkit on top of X? Who cares? XTerm is a living proof that we could survive without any fancy graphics. X- we can draw directly using a framebuffer, who cares? Classes to separate real and big codebases? We can simulate in C, who cares about C++? Xml, who cares? Ini files and binary ones are both faster, so who cares about validating Xmls?
    And so on, are too many areas that we take them today for granted and I think we should be really respectful for anything that is given more or less for free (as in beer at least) as a lot of these things are made with a lot of hard work. I'm sure that you are using a browser so advanced that it can likely make some parts of the program to run close to C performance because they have a Just-In-Time compiler, and you just read a text using sub-pixel hinting and if you can read this forum and you're not using a lynx browser, you can see it with CSS (why someone whould need a themed site, so who care about theming capabilities!?).
    Note: don't troll, is not fun, is not smart
    Lol, you mix crap(mono/.net) with space-technology list. Why? Do you really think you can mask the sh!t with sugar?
    Using mono is like building houses on top of sleeping volcano. This isnīt trolling, this is pervertism. And Java owns it in terms of freedom, technology and performance.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
    well!... who cares? really. This platform is kind of useless...
    Lets see, microsoft trolls! Elanthis, Thatguy, Blackstar and apparently ciplogic. Maybe you guys unite and port banshee to android, and mono all-way-long, ... because you need that mono crap for your favourite player sure, sure.

  4. #24
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    Default Does this version allows you to watch NBC live videos ?

    I haven't try to use Mono plugin for sometimes. The last time I tested it,
    it couldn't play MSNBC.com live games.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    Applications like 3D modelers, video and sound editors, games, desktop environments. Give me a title written in mono.Net and I'll give you more titles written in C or C++ that are more powerful.
    There were even a stock exchange running on it, but .net proved to be too slow. I'm not saying it's a useless platform, but I want to know why some consider it's better than C, C++, Qt and what real word advantage it brings? As far I can see there's no advantage, because mono projects are just pet projects: tomboy, some paint like application, f-spot and banshee - there are far better equivalents and there's no interest on Linux in mono projects. There must be some real reasons.
    CADs are 3D modellers and a lot of CADs are very old codebases, and makes no sense regardless of where Mono/.Net is to rewrite it from an working C/C++ code to a possibly non working yet productive C# code. But this does not mean that most of big software titles offer .Net support to interact with it. Even LibreOffice offers that.
    If you want to give specifc titles that are better than their C++ equivalents, most of RIA platforms are using a virtual machine on the back: Eclipse, NetBeans, XUL (Mozilla's managed runtime), SilverLight, Flash (Adobe AIR). Secondly: most modern application servers use either a virtual machine (Asp.Net, all Java Application servers), or use an interpreter (PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby).
    If you read a source like this one, you can find that Microsoft's ASP.Net offered 2.7 ms, against 0.3-0.4 ms per transaction (which seems not so slow for me):
    The choice of the latter, which has raised quite a few eyebrows in the market, is defended by Lester. He claims that LSE is coming off TradElect not because of the .Net technology itself (although its trading speed is 2.7 milliseconds compared to Linux-based Chi-X’s 0.4 milliseconds), but ‘for more control, less costs, and the ability to build and innovate’.
    The 90% of the transactions have even less speed, like 0.4 ms (for .Net - ) for 90% of transactions, and 2.7 is the 99% of transactions. (I know because is similar metric in aviation and many real time systems).
    At the end, the most important is what C# brings, is option. Before existing GNote, there was Tomboy, before existing Tracker, was the Beagle search, before ... was Gnome-Do, and so on. As for myself I run a combination of Java (Eclipse + IntelliJ IDEA) as they are better IDEs (even for C++ codebases) than you may find in any other language, mono and MonoDevelop (mostly Banshee). If I want to script something fast, like downloading a series of pictures and they are stored like: <url>+pic<id>.jpg , I use BooISH, or Bash.
    And for replacements of C# applications, in OpenSource world, I don't know a replacement of OpenBVE (video). I understand that it could be written in C++, but for that team, they liked C# and offered a game that no one would write in C++ (or at least not at the same quality). Can someone say which is the frame where GC kicked in and make this game unplayable?
    There are games written in JavaScript as part of Gnome 3 (or parts of Qt's plasmoids, or QML applications) which is slower than Mono is (at least in looping code), and I see it either way a much better option, than to write it in other language that I like it more. Gnome's Shell and Unity 2D (that uses QML which uses itself JavaScript Core part of WebKit), KDE's Plasma use JavaScript. I did not notice anyone arguing of .Net/Mono "fans" that they want to be rewritten in Mono as Mono is faster, lower memory consumer.
    Last edited by ciplogic; 03-26-2012 at 01:23 PM.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    I care... as I use Banshee as my music player.
    If you wanted to show you're rational, you can replace any words with their 5 years before technology: subpixel hinting (anti-aliasing) for fonts, 3D, Compiz, working 3D video drivers, who cares? Qt... who cares?
    If i want to be rational, i can't do that what you are saying.

    Anyway, Mono & .NET doesn't brings anything new to the table. There's no real advantages using it . There's other fantastic music players to choose from, and none of them use Mono. So, what's mono really NEEDED for? I'll tell you: nothing

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    ...And Java owns it in terms of freedom, technology and performance.
    Is Mono that bad!!!??? Anything worst than Java most be just crap and nothing else.
    Because is funny how a Java app can suck 80% of memory just because the java widgets to buid the GUI. Java is like the mc.donnals of the computing world.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
    So, what's mono really NEEDED for? I'll tell you: nothing
    That doesn't make anymore it 'useless' than tons of other lanugages/frameworks out there, also 'need' is subjective in this context. That said Mono is certainly technology which have had a hard time finding it's niche, IIRC Novell wanted to compete with Red Hat by being the Microsoft 'approved' Linux distribution and thereby got a patent protection agreement from them which only covered Novell users. Novell had purchased Ximian which developed Mono, an open source implementation of C#/NET which Novell obviously hoped with give them an advantage over Red Hat in the enterprise sector. However this failed as the enterprise was not interested in Mono and neither was the Linux desktop as history shows.

    Now it seems Miguel and his devs are doing fine having found a niche for Mono with their MonoTouch/MonoDroid application frameworks. I'm happy for this as even though I have no personal interest in Mono there certainly are those out there who does rely on it and if the devs can make money out of Mono it means they can continue to develop Mono as an open source free language.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
    Is Mono that bad!!!??? Anything worst than Java most be just crap and nothing else.
    Because is funny how a Java app can suck 80% of memory just because the java widgets to buid the GUI. Java is like the mc.donnals of the computing world.
    You make a lot of logical fallacies. Mono is slower than Java in raw performance, but is faster if you allocate things on stack, it uses less memory, at least than Java.
    In my task manager I have the following applications:
    Visual Studio (C++) 323 MB of RAM
    Borland Delphi Studio (Delphi - Native) 241 MB
    Firefox (C++) 194 MB
    IntelliJ IDEA (Java) 191 MB (with a medium project open)
    MonoDevelop (C#) 54 MB (with a medium project open)

    Which conclusion would you make out of it? I did not take any.

    I can make a loop of allocations and I can show that Mono would perform at least 3X faster (with GC, than default C++ new), and as a bonus I don't have to write destructors

    Anyway, Mono & .NET doesn't brings anything new to the table. There's no real advantages using it . There's other fantastic music players to choose from, and none of them use Mono. So, what's mono really NEEDED for? I'll tell you: nothing
    Any language that is Turing-Complete (like C onward) bring nothing "to the table" if you take just as raw functionality. "There are other fantastic music players" - there is Banshee too, and I use it, and I don't care if you think that AmaroK or Rythmbox is better, or XMMS2. Banshee was the single player for some time that can manage both video and audio. Only iTunes/Media Center could do in OS X/Windows world.
    I know many things that C# brings to "the table" that Java also has, but C++ doesn't:
    - Dependency Injection. Where is used? In MonoDevelop, or Eclipse. There is no standard way to do Dependency Injection, and to do it, you have to use invasive C++ techinques like QT's MOC. Are you aware of a Dependency Injection framework? Enlight me, as I need to be educated.
    - Easy to use multi-core. Where is used? In Pinta, not in Gimp.
    - Database connector standardization: JDBC and C# connectors are de-facto connectors if you want to use a database-agnostic code. Did you tried "Gnome-DB"? Or may you say which part of STL permit to you to connect to a database?
    - a nice to use language with GC:
    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    And for replacements of C# applications, in OpenSource world, I don't know a replacement of OpenBVE (video). I understand that it could be written in C++, but for that team, they liked C# and offered a game that no one would write in C++ (or at least not at the same quality). Can someone say which is the frame where GC kicked in and make this game unplayable?
    Last edited by ciplogic; 03-26-2012 at 02:28 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by XorEaxEax View Post
    That doesn't make anymore it 'useless' than tons of other lanugages/frameworks out there, also 'need' is subjective in this context. That said Mono is certainly technology which have had a hard time finding it's niche, IIRC Novell wanted to compete with Red Hat by being the Microsoft 'approved' Linux distribution and thereby got a patent protection agreement from them which only covered Novell users. Novell had purchased Ximian which developed Mono, an open source implementation of C#/NET which Novell obviously hoped with give them an advantage over Red Hat in the enterprise sector. However this failed as the enterprise was not interested in Mono and neither was the Linux desktop as history shows.

    Now it seems Miguel and his devs are doing fine having found a niche for Mono with their MonoTouch/MonoDroid application frameworks. I'm happy for this as even though I have no personal interest in Mono there certainly are those out there who does rely on it and if the devs can make money out of Mono it means they can continue to develop Mono as an open source free language.
    Loved it, you're great!

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