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Thread: Microsoft Windows 8: Mostly A Crap Wreck

  1. #31
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    Dec 2011
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    Default Metro

    Perhaps Metro could work on phones, tvs, and tablets.
    But it is absolutely shit for the desktop.

    You have to give Microsoft credit for being brave though, because if the reception of Windows 8 is bad, it can hurt them.

  2. #32
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    Jun 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    I believe him, since countless times I installed Linux on various machines only to have stuff like not getting any sound, plugging-in a USB microphone doing nothing and graphics drivers not supporting accelerated 3D or desktop effects.
    I think alot of us don't realize that we're long, looooong used to doing that work. For me, its second nature... configure ALSA / DMIX to use a PCI sound card for playback and a USB card for recording... done. To me its like breathing air to do that and other things like switching runlevels to install an NVIDIA driver. Lets make one thing clear: getting Linux to work, provided it WILL work with some tweaking, IS NOT HARD, you just have to know how to do it. One of Ubuntu's key innovations isn't even in the distro- its in their "cover every base" wiki / documentation. For things that don't work in Ubuntu, there's often a wiki page or a lengthy tutorial on a forum.

    Disclaimer for the next paragraph: I have shunned Microsoft/Windows since XP. I have had zero intention of ever running anything Microsoft for an OS since 2004, so my experience may be a little dated.

    Windows isn't any different, it does NOT work out of the box without tweaking. You have to run all kinds of driver install "wizards" that often install malware alongside what you actually need (I'm looking at you, HP) and the default/stock drivers often lack advanced hardware acceleration or don't work at all. I imagine Windows 8 is just so new right now that the hardware out there at the time is usually at least partially usable... I find Ubuntu much "easier" because when you bring a webcam or printer home from the store, you can throw away the useless disc and just plug it in- and it works flawlessly. UVC is one thing, but random printer off the shelf working perfectly is awesome! No config!

    Remember, both of these points are moot if you purchase a box that has the OS preinstalled... Ubuntu CAN work "out of the box" if the box you're unpacking is a System7 desktop.

    On another note: Alot of people here are taste testing the Microsoft kool-aid... weren't you saying that Michael had sold his soul to the devil for having an iPhone (Apple being Pure Evil™), yesterday even?

  3. #33
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    Sep 2011
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    680

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    I can't get my tablet (no not like an iPad thing) working with W7 but it works with Vista, seams to be related to incompatible kernel ABIs In think my case highlights a different aspect of the two models, namely that if you get support from the vendors new hardware can be added to Windows relatively easily but ons the support stops your hardware can become useless in case of an ABI change. On the other hand with the in kernel driver you have a higher chance of the driver adaption to a changing system. Or is it just open source that I am thinking of here? Ironically it seams that Linux 3.0 has finally gotten support for my tablet.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJenbo View Post
    I can't get my tablet (no not like an iPad thing) working with W7 but it works with Vista, seams to be related to incompatible kernel ABIs In think my case highlights a different aspect of the two models, namely that if you get support from the vendors new hardware can be added to Windows relatively easily but ons the support stops your hardware can become useless in case of an ABI change. On the other hand with the in kernel driver you have a higher chance of the driver adaption to a changing system. Or is it just open source that I am thinking of here? Ironically it seams that Linux 3.0 has finally gotten support for my tablet.
    Windows breaks things even after releasing Service Packs. Not to mention new Windows releases.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    And you must be dense, since he didn't say he can't get it to work. He said he can't get it to work with all his hardware working correctly. I believe him, since countless times I installed Linux on various machines only to have stuff like not getting any sound, plugging-in a USB microphone doing nothing and graphics drivers not supporting accelerated 3D or desktop effects.
    I did the same with Windows and experience isn't any better. Imagine HP deskjet drivers were working with SP2 only. SP3 was broken. There are MANY problems with Windows.

  6. #36
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    Sep 2011
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    Youch, reminds me of when I upgraded my XP to sp3 and the ATI driver would not rotate the screen as I was not "upgraded" to sp2, to top it of the driver was EOL for my GPU so I ended up having to use a 3 party software to get the image to display in the right direction on my monitor.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    Linux does not provide a driver ABI like Windows does because it's too much work to maintain that ABI. Windows does shy away from that work because we *pay* them. They get paid to work and satisfy our demands. You can't *demand* anything from Linux kernel developers. You aren't paying them.
    This sentence is very misleading. It's not that Linux doesn't keep ABI stable, because it's too much work (Solaris and FreeBSD tries to maintain a stable ABI while they have much less developers same time). It's also philosophical and practical difference. Linux customers (RHEL, Canonical etc.) can demand the same as Windows ones.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    This sentence is very misleading. It's not that Linux doesn't keep ABI stable, because it's too much work (Solaris and FreeBSD tries to maintain a stable ABI while they have much less developers same time). It's also philosophical and practical difference. Linux customers (RHEL, Canonical etc.) can demand the same as Windows ones.
    Linux does not *have* a driver ABI. There's nothing to keep stable; it doesn't exist to begin with. It's been discussed in the past already, and the reason given is that it's too big of a maintenance burden to introduce an ABI.

    Linux customers of Read Hat don't care about this stuff; they not multimedia/desktop people. Those of Canonical don't either, since they only ship pre-installed Linux on laptops.

  9. #39
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    Oct 2009
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    Well... I actually have to argue a few points of praise that were given in the article to MSwin... the first is the passing of whacked out parameters to the installer in order to proceed. Ever tried installing MSwin to a device with unusual hardware? For example, a promise supertrack raid controller (yeah, its been that long since I've installed wondoze). In any event, if the disk controller requires drivers that aren't part of wondoze, or sometimes even if the installation drive is somehow wacky (funny that the installer would start if the install disk can't be read, yet it happens), you WILL have to apply special drivers and configurations during a wondoze installation. Linux, from time to time, may require a special parameter, but by and large, the hardware itself will be supported already in kernel. The main exception to this is with hardware that ships AFTER the kernel. Usually, you go with a newer distro in this event, but sometimes it can be slightly sticky when dealing with long term support enterprise distros.

    The second thing that I must argue against is the praise given to wondoze regarding upgrading graphics devices. Wondoze is no better -- if you want to run a recent graphics device and are still trying to use XP-pre-SP1 (because the more crap they add to it, the worse it works), you'll be boned. Maybe have to update to the most recent SP (which replaces most of the entire OS), or may have to do something radical, like vista/7 (which of course, will break compatibility with the majority of your software). IMO, a kernel+graphics stack upgrade is a much LESS significant upgrade than a wondoze SP.

    I also don't like how the software-repository concept was attributed to apple. Linux distros used software repositories long before apple did. Apple was just the first to COMMERCIALIZE a software repository. In fact, I would say that the software repository infrastructure is far more advanced on Linux than it is on microapple, in that it allows the integration of MULTIPLE repositories and can cross check software dependencies and conflicts. Please... credit to those who really DESERVE it. Not to those who BUTCHER it.

    Oh yeah, one more hoop to jump through for wondoze installation; the f-ing "customer is a criminal" key.

  10. #40
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    Jun 2009
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    I have been beta testing windows since Win98 (which they charged you to do) upto 8. But after two weeks testing 8 in RC it was enough. I just could not get used to the interface. In the beta it was possible to put the start menu back but in the RC it wasn't (not sure if anyone has yet) I don't dislike it it at all it does have some nice features here and there but the way things are hidden away becomes frustrating when you try to do simple things.
    I wasn't keen on unity either, but to be honest it works a whole lot better than 8. I'm currently using Ubuntu 12.04 (some unity modifications to make it work for me - ubuntu tweak!) and in the past week I have found ubuntu to be far more user friendly even with unity. But for 8 I can see a vista scenario and the soonish arrival of Windows 9. Personally I think they dropped the ball on this one.

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