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Thread: Microsoft Windows 8: Mostly A Crap Wreck

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by droidhacker View Post
    Well... I actually have to argue a few points of praise that were given in the article to MSwin... the first is the passing of whacked out parameters to the installer in order to proceed. Ever tried installing MSwin to a device with unusual hardware? For example, a promise supertrack raid controller (yeah, its been that long since I've installed wondoze). In any event, if the disk controller requires drivers that aren't part of wondoze, or sometimes even if the installation drive is somehow wacky (funny that the installer would start if the install disk can't be read, yet it happens), you WILL have to apply special drivers and configurations during a wondoze installation. Linux, from time to time, may require a special parameter, but by and large, the hardware itself will be supported already in kernel. The main exception to this is with hardware that ships AFTER the kernel. Usually, you go with a newer distro in this event, but sometimes it can be slightly sticky when dealing with long term support enterprise distros.

    The second thing that I must argue against is the praise given to wondoze regarding upgrading graphics devices. Wondoze is no better -- if you want to run a recent graphics device and are still trying to use XP-pre-SP1 (because the more crap they add to it, the worse it works), you'll be boned. Maybe have to update to the most recent SP (which replaces most of the entire OS), or may have to do something radical, like vista/7 (which of course, will break compatibility with the majority of your software). IMO, a kernel+graphics stack upgrade is a much LESS significant upgrade than a wondoze SP.
    This last paragraph is kind of ridiculous. Yes, ancient versions of Windows don't work well with modern devices. The same is true of Linux. Try installing Linux from 2001 on a modern laptop and see how well that works. Secondly, I've found that most of my software *does* work just fine on Windows 7, even 64 bit. That's not really true for Linux. We never notice because we always just install software from the repos. You can't take binaries, or installers from 2001 and have them work on modern Linux. It's DOA.

  2. #42
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    Mar 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    This is the delusion Michael mentions. It's not "superior." It's a different design philosophy. Windows does not put drivers in the kernel. Windows does not force you to install a new kernel just to update one driver. The Windows way of dealing with drivers is superior to Linux from the user perspective. The Linux way of dealing with drivers is superior from the kernel developer perspective. Linux does not provide a driver ABI like Windows does because it's too much work to maintain that ABI. Windows does shy away from that work because we *pay* them. They get paid to work and satisfy our demands. You can't *demand* anything from Linux kernel developers. You aren't paying them.


    And you must be dense, since he didn't say he can't get it to work. He said he can't get it to work with all his hardware working correctly. I believe him, since countless times I installed Linux on various machines only to have stuff like not getting any sound, plugging-in a USB microphone doing nothing and graphics drivers not supporting accelerated 3D or desktop effects.
    So you speak for all users on the superior method of driver management? Wow you're an important guy... Personally I find hunting for driver's especially on old hardware vastly annoying. Much like yourself.

    I'm dense for not believing him? His story sounds like he may of gave it a go once or twice but to never have it work on the first try? I can't believe that and you shouldn't defend him just to troll unless you're some champion of Gabe's character , shut it. Eh with the 3D stuff I concede there is a rage of potential pitfalls but my experience has been somewhat easy since I don't use wasteful desktop effects using my computer for work and all.

    I don't see anything about Windows 8 in your post you shouldn't troll.

    I really think Windows 7 is going to be around for a LONG time I think 8 is going to be more of a tablet thing. M$ probably thinks so as well considering the extension in support and the half hearted metro/classic integration.
    Last edited by nightmarex; 05-04-2012 at 01:52 PM.

  3. #43
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    Default "Second nature"???

    Quote Originally Posted by kazetsukai View Post
    For me, its second nature...
    I knew a guy who memorized the PDP-11 boot loader and could enter it from the front-panel switches from memory. For him it was "second nature" but you can hardly claim that the PDP-11 is a user-friendly piece of hardware.

    The important thing to take away is the "FOR ME" aspect. We all get used to our little daily drills and and yet to others they are mystifying.

    For example my wife is a musician and she records her own music all the time and she would not find your configuration of PCI and USB devices to be "second nature"

    Microsoft proves once again that their slogan is "where do you want to be taken today"? Life is grand if you fit into their "use-case scenarios", but if you deviate from their script then you find yourself in the ditch.

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    Linux does not *have* a driver ABI. There's nothing to keep stable; it doesn't exist to begin with. It's been discussed in the past already, and the reason given is that it's too big of a maintenance burden to introduce an ABI.
    Yes, you're right. I was thinking about API and there are good points made by Greg KH about this.

    Linux customers of Read Hat don't care about this stuff; they not multimedia/desktop people. Those of Canonical don't either, since they only ship pre-installed Linux on laptops.
    I meant they will listen to you when you buy their support.

  5. #45
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    The only way I got used to using GNOME 3 Shell was by forcing myself to learn the keyboard shortcuts -- and I found I'm more efficient than before. I wonder if it's possible the Metro UI is the same way? That's just wishful thinking, probably... but I really appreciate keyboard shortcuts.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kraftman View Post
    I meant they will listen to you when you buy their support.
    I have yet to see a multimedia/gamer/desktop user buying $8000 enterprise support :-P

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by siride View Post
    This last paragraph is kind of ridiculous. Yes, ancient versions of Windows don't work well with modern devices. The same is true of Linux. Try installing Linux from 2001 on a modern laptop and see how well that works.
    You kind of slow pal? I'm not saying that modern devices work great on ancient linux. I'm saying that modern devices DON'T work on ancient wondoze, and that PARTIAL UPGRADE of ancient linux to more modern linux is FAR MORE POSSIBLE than similar procedure on wondoze (where it is totally IMpossible).

    Secondly, I've found that most of my software *does* work just fine on Windows 7, even 64 bit.
    At what point did ONE USER'S case apply to everyone? You wouldn't believe just how ENORMOUS a problem it was when XP got canned by MS.

    That's not really true for Linux. We never notice because we always just install software from the repos. You can't take binaries, or installers from 2001 and have them work on modern Linux. It's DOA.
    You're WAY off base here. Old binaries work perfectly well on new Linux. Yes, even old stuff from 2001. Most of the problems you might experience with running old binaries is that they link against old libraries. A very neat thing about Linux is that the old libraries, should you choose to install them, can actually COEXIST with the new libraries -- at least in most cases. In other cases, you just throw in the old libraries directly with the old binaries, or even do a chroot into an environment populated by the old libraries, rather than installing them on the system. Either way, Linux has way better backwards compatibilty than Windows. Sometimes non-trivial, but at least always POSSIBLE.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
    I have yet to see a multimedia/gamer/desktop user buying $8000 enterprise support :-P
    It's hard to believe, but some hardcore gamers are willing to pay even $10k:

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/inxile/wasteland-2

    Ubuntu support is much cheaper. :-P

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by kernelOfTruth View Post
    anyone who had windows 8 installed tried to copy over around 10+ GB of data from one partition to another (or different harddrive) ?

    when doing this with windows 7 all multi-tasking comes to a grinding halt

    it may have been firefox' issue but I doubt that, would be interesting if they improved the i/o scheduler, too or again only some minor changes here and there and lots of publicity

    at least next time I'll try it with chrome but I doubt that this would make a difference
    The problem is something specific to your hardware or how you are copying files. On my Windows 7 machine I have used Explorer to make copies of multiple gigabytes between my drives (SSD to Velociraptor, Raptor to SSD, also SSD and Raptor to and from eSATA backup drives) and the rest of the system continues to run without much of a slowdown. Web browsing has a little more page load delay and game levels take a bit longer to load. But nothing comes to a grinding halt.

    Now, admittedly, I am running a SSD as my boot, OS, and applications drive. This may be making a difference. If you're running a Western Digital Green or something else like that, or really, any laptop drive, then well...

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by e8hffff View Post
    You should have kept this review till they shipped so that Microsoft doesn't have time to work over Metro after negative aura.

    It's understandable that drivers work better on Microsoft as vendors with old mindsets are jumping hurdles for them, where on Linux coders have to beg for support from these same vendors. Anyway, those vendors that don't come to Linux will be shunned and lose out in long run.

    Understanding Metro is to see Microsoft's desperation to cut into the mobile market, which they currently are crippled in, therefore they are forcing users to experience their mobile systems in hope of adoption. I can't see them succeeding. Microsoft is simply on the nose and people are leaving them in droves.
    People won't leave them in droves. "Daddy I need a new laptop" "Here you go kid/partner" is basically how it'll go. They'll be stuck with win8 and that'll be that. Some vendors might offer 7 after a while on the same hardware, much like XP was offered after the vista debacle. People will remain with MicroSoft, because that's what you get when you buy a computer. Granted, a handfull will get a mac and a few will try this 'ubuntu' thing. If we're really lucky though, some of those will stick to ubuntu. ;D

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