Microsoft Hosts: GNOME & Mono Festival of Love

[directhex]

I can make real numbers and real numbers show Amarok is much more efficient than Banshee.

If you already have Qt. On a GTK+ desktop, which covers most Free Software desktops, pulling in Amarok (which will pull in Qt) pulls in FAR more stuff than pulling in Mono.

They do care. This thread is about this and there's Icaza that's (or was) MS employee.

Hackfest organizer asks local company for a room for hackfest, company agrees, HOLY SHITBALLS IT'S A CONSPIRACY

Plus, 1) de Icaza isn't organizing this, and 2) de Icaza isn't a Microsoft employee, and 3) de Icaza has never been a Microsoft employee. So yet again you come across as a conspiracy theorist loon.

Yes, it seems Qt is much more efficient.

According to your own personal criteria, which you just made up. The rest of us can use empirical numbers.

Bullshit. Rather anyone who wants it to be MS patent mess.

Nobody EVER has pointed out a SINGLE patent which Mono supposedly violates.

It's a bogeyman. It does not exist. It's an excuse to justify your holy war.

We need real games and not such crap.

Game Developers Choice Awards – Best Debut, Best Downloadable Game
Academy of Interactive Arts and Sciences – Downloadable Title of the Year
Associated Press – Top 10 Games of the Year
Entertainment Weekly – Best Videogames of 2011
TIME – Top 10 Games of 2011
USA Today – Top 10 Games of 2011
NPR – Ten Best Video Games of 2011
CNN – Top 10 Video Games
Wired – Top 20 Best Games of the Year
Paste Magazine – Game of the Year
Boston Herald – Best Game of 2011
A.V. Club – 10 Best Games of 2011
ScienceFiction.com – Top 10 Best Sci-Fi Video Games of 2011
Spike VGAs – Best Downloadable Game, Best Original Score, Best Song
Inside Gaming Awards – Best Downloadable Game, Best Indie Game, Best Original Score
IGN.com – Best XBLA Game
VentureBeat – Best Indie Games of 2011
Giant Bomb – Best Music, Best Debut Game, Best Downloadable Game, Top 10
TotalBiscuit – #1 Game of 2011
UGO – Best Downloadable Game of the Year
Yahoo – Best Downloadable Game
Game Audio Network Guild – Best Soundtrack (Indie), Rookie of the Year
MSNBC – 5 Great Games for the Art Lover
Game Informer – Best RPG Innovation (The Narrator)
Eurogamer – Games of 2011, Pick
Kill Screen – Best Games of 2011, Pick
Official Xbox Magazine – Best Music
GameSpot – Song of the Year
Joystiq – Top 10 of 2011
Team Xbox – XBLA Game of the Year
Quartertothree – Game of the Year
New York Videogame Critics Circle – Best Music, Best Indie Game
NAVGTR – Original Role-Playing Game, Best Performance in a Comedy
XBLA Fans – Best Audio, Best Visuals
Xbox 360 Achievements – Best Arcade Game
Zero Punctuation – Top 5 of 2011
Electric Playground – Best Downloadable Game
Rock Paper Shotgun – The Games of Christmas
Boy’s Life Magazine – Best Downloadable Game
IndieDB – Worldly Award for Best Gameworld, Players Choice Top 10
Gamereactor UK – Digital GOTY, Music of the Year
HorribleNight – Best Downloadable Game, Best Soundtrack, Indie Developer of the Year
IndieGames.com – Top 10 Indie Games of the Year
The Escapist – 12 Games of Christmas
/v/GA Vidya Gaem Awards – Eargasm Award, Stylish Aesthetics Award, Most Interesting New IP
Reaction Time – Best Downloadable, Best Voice Acting, Best Soundtrack
TrendyGamers – Downloadable GOTY
Gamezebo.com – Best PC Game of 2011
XBLARatings – XBLA Game of the Year
Press X or Die – Game of the Year
Video Game Writers – Best Indie Game
GameCola.net – Most Innovative, Best Indie Game, Best Downloadable Game
Unwinnable.com – Best Surprise Indie Darling
Ripten – Best Downloadable Game, Biggest Surprise
Reviews on the Run – Best Downloadable Game
Capsule Computers – Best Downloadable Game
IndieGameReviewer.com – Best Indie Game of the Year
GamingUnion.net – Best New IP, Best Indie Game, Best Indie Developer
TIGSource – Top Indie Game of 2011 (by Community Vote)
RPGamer.com – RPG of the Year, Most Original Game, Best Downloadable Game
NeoGAF – Digital Distribution Game of the Year
gamrFeed – Best Downloadable Game, Best XBLA Game
The Game Effect – Best Indie Game, Best Original IP, Best Musical Score, Best Story
RPGFan – Best Downloadable RPG
TrueAchievements.com – Best XBLA Game
The Thrifty Nerd – Top 10 Games of 2011
Media Kick – Readers Choice, Best Downloadable Game
Kotaku Australia – Readers Choice, Indie Downloadable GOTY
Level Save – Game of the Year Pick
Click Online – Top 7 Pleasant Surprises
Piki Geek – Top 10 Best of the Year
nJoystic – Best Soundtrack
Press2Reset – Best Soundtrack, Best Song
The Sixth Axis – Best Downloadable Game
MiddleEast Gamers – Best Indie Game
The Cross and the Controller – Best Downloadable Game, Best Voice Acting
Kotaku – Pick, Best Game Music of 2011
GamerCrash – Best Soundtrack
Gamercast – Top Downloadable Game
We Got This Covered – Best XBLA/PSN Game
Bishop’s Gaming World – Best Soundtrack, Top 10 Games of the Year
Infinite Ammo – Top 10 Games of 2011
Rotorob – Downloadable GOTY
Mash Those Buttons – Best Arcade Game of 2011
Warp Zoned – Best Music
RPG Site – Indie RPG of the Year, Surprise of the Year, Best Soundtrack in a 2011 RPG
Tom’s Hardware Turkey – Most Original Game, Best Narrative, Best Original Score

GET THIS SHIT OFF LINUX, WE NEED SUPERTUX 3 THE SUPERTUXENING INSTEAD!

Software != software and politics affects this software. There's good and patent free software

I say Qt violates 57.8 patents held by Halliburton and Umbrella Corp. Prove that it doesn't. Oh wait, you can't, because it's bullshit with no evidence: exactly the same body of evidence you've provided to attack Mono.

[directhex]

You're mistake is you're comparing crap to even worse crap.

But you're not attacking the other "crap" for being bloated, you're attacking Mono. The numbers show you're full of shit.

Plus, let's try some other numbers. I had hoped to avoid embarrassing you with this, but you did kinda ask for it.

root@dream:/# aptitude install libqt4-core
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  dbus{a} libcap2{a} libdbus-1-3{a} libexpat1{a} libffi5{a} libglib2.0-0{a} 
  libglib2.0-data{a} libpcre3{a} libqt4-core libqt4-dbus{a} 
  libqt4-network{a} libqt4-script{a} libqt4-test{a} libqt4-xml{a} 
  libqtcore4{a} libsystemd-login0{a} libxml2{a} qdbus{a} sgml-base{a} 
  shared-mime-info{a} xml-core{a} 
0 packages upgraded, 21 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 13.4 MB of archives. After unpacking 35.8 MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C

Tell me more about your incredibly well-researched views on bloat.

edit: in the interest of total transparency, the above package is not the smallest Qt install on Debian. It was in older versions of Qt, but was further minimized in Qt 4.4. Here is the new smallest Qt install possible, with no GUI support at all, just support for the core Qt object model stuff in command line apps:

root@dream:/# aptitude install libqtcore4
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  libffi5{a} libglib2.0-0{a} libglib2.0-data{a} libpcre3{a} libqtcore4 
  libxml2{a} sgml-base{a} shared-mime-info{a} xml-core{a} 
0 packages upgraded, 9 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 10.2 MB of archives. After unpacking 27.6 MB will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n/?] ^C

[robpvn]

Once again, directhex brings the facts. This is the same thing I see every time he wades into the fray: cold, hard facts are presented, while those arguing against him have not much more than opinion and conjecture to come with.

[0xBADCODE]

Amarok takes 10 gig! (rounding up to the nearest 10 gig)

That's a very common way of MS guys to count in their "get the facts". Why can't others learn some things from them? Are MS boys so unhappy others using their tricks on them? Well, it happens, ehehehe

I never said 50 meg of libs, I said 50 meg for the apps, AND the runtime, AND the libs. 50 meg total

I can remember that unpacked size of all mono stuff I ditched from Ubuntu when it has been supplied with mono has been around 100Mb. Honestly, I don't need moron photo managers who can't browse photo directly and starting for 20 seconds or so. Same goes about half-bugged and bloated players like banshee. Finally Ubuntu has got it right. Yay!

I think we already determined that you have difficulty counting, so I'm not sure your "ton" number there carries much weight

I think that you prefer count digits in ways which are not making your fetish looking like piece of crap. I don't care. Insert this marketing bullsh.... to place where sun does not shines.

I don't think you really understand how packages work. Figures.
Mono on Debian/Ubuntu is split into 201 distinct packages. Only the required pieces are ever installed.

Thanks, Captain. What a bunch of crap. And when you install from CD, there was quite many crap installed by default for Banshee and F-spot. Fortunately it's over so I no longer need to uninstall it.

Don't need WCF? It's not installed.
....
Don't need ASP.NET? It's not installed.

In fact I don't need mono at all. It's a worthless. There are no any usable programs using it. And WCF clearly implies that not everyone is equal. Should it be success, wouldn't a MS remember that W means Windows so everyone must pay for trademark, etc? Dealing with MS always haves bad outcome for everyone but MS .

Only the exact, specific libraries used by an app are installed. No more, no less. The footprint on disk required to run a Mono "hello world" is only a couple of meg higher than Python, and lower than Perl.

That's why I prefer C/C++ GTK and Qt programs . So you can compete with other third-rate stuff if you wish. Fortunately this will not be my problem. And btw I also ditched most of python crap as well. You see, 90% of Ubuntu bugs are lurking in low-quality python glue code. Rapid development always comes at price and code quality is just beyond my wildest imaginations. Their SSO client crashed (bah, python crap). And then bug reporter crashed too (lol, python crap either). Really low quality thing. Better try to beat C and C++

Not to mention that I find it utterly bizarre that the only people who gripe about whether or not Mono is "feature complete" are people who rage against it. No WPF support? Nobody making apps for Linux cares.

That what really suxx in mono. You can make "apps for Linux". Or "apps for Windows". But there are virtually no cross-platform apps. So all this idiocy with virtual machines makes a very little sense as the result. Most programs should suffer a major UI rewrite during porting. Say, GTK and Qt
are much less moron in this regard and it's ok just to recompile program, but no need to rewrite half of program code doing UI stuff.

Then you'll be pleased to read http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTEwMTg which will eliminate the startup time of Mono apps.

Well, I don't really care about mono so far. There are no useful programs using it. Let's it rest in peace. Why some moron needs a "cross platform" runtime which can't even have the cross platform set of widgets? Perfect idiocy. But it's MS, it's okay for them.

As for waste, nope. Mono almost always uses less RAM than the equivalent Python, and always uses less than the equivalent Java.

Come on, beat C and C++. I don't really care about junk competitions. Beat some real programs, not a script kiddie stuff. Oh, looks like I've been lucky to never see Perl programs. Just some casual scripts intended for automation where it's okay if it's not very optimal if it's one time task and you can afford resources. However I never considered running perl stuff on permanent basis as some kind of program .

It's also almost always faster than Python or Ruby.

Well, to my taste Python is awkward and I never seen any really good program written using Python. Ruby is something strange either. I only know one thing but it's Redmine and if we'll look on the web apps, ASP.NET stuff definitely worst thing in web I ever seen.

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against availability of games (3 Humble Bundle games, for example: Bastion, Spacechem, Atom Zombie Smasher)

Well, as for me I would prefer games from some real pros like Valve, not a "wannabe-gamedevs". No, really, no any serious gamedevs are using .net. Even on windows. Some third-rate things from wannabe-gamedevs do not count. Let's leave third rate stuff for windows users .

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against competitive performance for managed apps (i.e. the balance of RAM and CPU and disk used by Mono is highly competitive with any other popular managed language framework used on Linux)

Well, you see, Java can at least launch more or less same program on any system. Mono almost can't. There are some awkward ways to work this around but overall it's just absolutely insane that there is no identical set of widgets for all platforms. But it's MS so they don't need true cross platform apps for obvious reasons.

Raging against Mono on Linux is raging against helping people move from Windows to Linux (e.g. people with university courses taught in C# or VB.NET can use Ubuntu instead of Windows)

As for me, it would be better if they would live in windows with their wrecked knowledge if they not going to learn something better. You see, it's enough to have one windows. Making yet another windows from something else is futile and stupid (and mono even uses MZ EXE binaries, unlike java, phew!). So if you want to have MS tools, you will be third rate citizen of *nix world anyway. So why to bother? Either learn something better or begone. Else ... hmm, there are already over 20 000 packages in Debian. It's already challenge to find good program. Third rate stuff would add even more headache with search.

Complaining your mono crap isn't very welcome in Linux world is like if I would complain that I'm not so welcome in restaurants as Chef due to my very average cooking skills. You see, nobody really needs third-rate meal made by someone who isn't a real Chef at all when they come to restaurants.

But I doubt you care much about that. It's all about the holy war, isn't it?

At the end of day I like a programs with quality code, small and fast and with as few deps as possible. So you can trust to such program even mission critical things and it would not fail by exposing 10 own bugs + 20 runtime bugs, etc. However this is clearly not about mono at all.

MS + Mono = Festival of Love. Everything seems to be f...d up when you want some real cross platform interoperability

[directhex]

I can remember that unpacked size of all mono stuff I ditched from Ubuntu when it has been supplied with mono has been around 100Mb. Honestly, I don't need moron photo managers who can't browse photo directly and starting for 20 seconds or so. Same goes about half-bugged and bloated players like banshee. Finally Ubuntu has got it right. Yay!

You'll only have a 100 meg or so footprint if you manually installed all the development tools.

I think that you prefer count digits in ways which are not making your fetish looking like piece of crap. I don't care. Insert this marketing bullsh.... to place where sun does not shines.

Yes, I use "evidence" rather than "imaginary unicorn wishes". Sorry if that offends you.

Thanks, Captain. What a bunch of crap. And when you install from CD, there was quite many crap installed by default for Banshee and F-spot. Fortunately it's over so I no longer need to uninstall it.

More packages means less bundling. Less bundling means fewer un-needed libraries. See my 2011 FOSDEM talk.

In fact I don't need mono at all. It's a worthless. There are no any usable programs using it. And WCF clearly implies that not everyone is equal. Should it be success, wouldn't a MS remember that W means Windows so everyone must pay for trademark, etc? Dealing with MS always haves bad outcome for everyone but MS .

Calling something Windows Foobar really has no effect on what it is or does. Reckon WxWindows was incapable of running on Linux, before it changed name?

That's why I prefer C/C++ GTK and Qt programs . So you can compete with other third-rate stuff if you wish. Fortunately this will not be my problem. And btw I also ditched most of python crap as well. You see, 90% of Ubuntu bugs are lurking in low-quality python glue code. Rapid development always comes at price and code quality is just beyond my wildest imaginations. Their SSO client crashed (bah, python crap). And then bug reporter crashed too (lol, python crap either). Really low quality thing. Better try to beat C and C++

Scroll up. Already done. Qt is 2-3x more bloated than Mono. That's just the cold hard numbers.

That what really suxx in mono. You can make "apps for Linux". Or "apps for Windows". But there are virtually no cross-platform apps. So all this idiocy with virtual machines makes a very little sense as the result. Most programs should suffer a major UI rewrite during porting. Say, GTK and Qt
are much less moron in this regard and it's ok just to recompile program, but no need to rewrite half of program code doing UI stuff.

Any well-written GTK# app is portable. Any app written with the assumption that it is on Windows is not. You can trivially make a Qt or GTK+ app only run on Windows, or on Mac.

Well, I don't really care about mono so far. There are no useful programs using it. Let's it rest in peace. Why some moron needs a "cross platform" runtime which can't even have the cross platform set of widgets? Perfect idiocy. But it's MS, it's okay for them.

Ever heard of GTK? It's cross platform.

Come on, beat C and C++. I don't really care about junk competitions. Beat some real programs, not a script kiddie stuff. Oh, looks like I've been lucky to never see Perl programs. Just some casual scripts intended for automation where it's okay if it's not very optimal if it's one time task and you can afford resources. However I never considered running perl stuff on permanent basis as some kind of program .

Scroll up. Already done. Qt is 2-3x more bloated than Mono. That's just the cold hard numbers.

Well, as for me I would prefer games from some real pros like Valve, not a "wannabe-gamedevs". No, really, no any serious gamedevs are using .net. Even on windows. Some third-rate things from wannabe-gamedevs do not count. Let's leave third rate stuff for windows users .

Scroll up. Bastion has over 100 awards. And companies like EA are using Mono all the time (ever heard of "The Sims 3"?). Unity3D, which is based on Mono, is the number 1 mobile game engine, according to Game Developer magazine's survey.

Well, you see, Java can at least launch more or less same program on any system. Mono almost can't. There are some awkward ways to work this around but overall it's just absolutely insane that there is no identical set of widgets for all platforms. But it's MS so they don't need true cross platform apps for obvious reasons.

So use a cross-platform toolkit like GTK#

As for me, it would be better if they would live in windows with their wrecked knowledge if they not going to learn something better. You see, it's enough to have one windows. Making yet another windows from something else is futile and stupid (and mono even uses MZ EXE binaries, unlike java, phew!). So if you want to have MS tools, you will be third rate citizen of *nix world anyway. So why to bother? Either learn something better or begone. Else ... hmm, there are already over 20 000 packages in Debian. It's already challenge to find good program. Third rate stuff would add even more headache with search.

So you actively want Linux to be less inviting to new users? Figures.

Complaining your mono crap isn't very welcome in Linux world is like if I would complain that I'm not so welcome in restaurants as Chef due to my very average cooking skills. You see, nobody really needs third-rate meal made by someone who isn't a real Chef at all when they come to restaurants.

You really aren't even remotely in the same league as any of the Mono developers, when it comes to programming skill. No really. Those guys are absolutely incredible, and you are not.

At the end of day I like a programs with quality code, small and fast and with as few deps as possible. So you can trust to such program even mission critical things and it would not fail by exposing 10 own bugs + 20 runtime bugs, etc. However this is clearly not about mono at all.

It's everything to do with Mono, and your holy war.

MS + Mono = Festival of Love. Everything seems to be f...d up when you want some real cross platform interoperability

The "Mono Festival of Love" is a hackfest where the #1 priority is to be a #1 GNOME citizen. Windows is not on the agenda. Microsoft NERD is just providing a room, not any influence on proceedings.

[Luke_Wolf]

Raw C++ is really sort of a different animal than Qt.

Qt adds a lot of extra functionality, great libraries, features, and documentation on top of C++, which makes it very nice to use.

I think when people talk about how difficult C++ is, they are generally just using the STL and bringing in random libraries to help them out.

Indeed it is rather different, although C++11 helps a lot. However even still for all it's deficiencies when not using Qt, it's actually workable unlike Java.

That said.. Qt is the defacto C++ toolkit, well.. it and boost, (I'm honestly rather uncertain why anyone would bother with the STL actually, which in and of itself is just another (inferior) toolkit, built in mind you, but not really worth it by comparison) so any statement regarding the language difficulty of C++ needs to include it.

[smitty3268]

Indeed it is rather different, although C++11 helps a lot. However even still for all it's deficiencies when not using Qt, it's actually workable unlike Java.

That said.. Qt is the defacto C++ toolkit, well.. it and boost, (I'm honestly rather uncertain why anyone would bother with the STL actually, which in and of itself is just another (inferior) toolkit, built in mind you, but not really worth it by comparison) so any statement regarding the language difficulty of C++ needs to include it.

Qt is NOT the defacto c++ toolkit. That would be whatever MS includes in Visual Studio.

Even if you restrict it to only Linux projects, Qt is in < 50% of c++ projects out there.

It's definitely the best c++ toolkit, but not the defacto one.

[zeke123]

[QUOTE=directhex;267230
Plus, 1) de Icaza isn't organizing this, and 2) de Icaza isn't a Microsoft employee, and 3) de Icaza has never been a Microsoft employee. So yet again you come across as a conspiracy theorist loon.

.[/QUOTE]

You are right.

De Icaza is just a Microsoft MVP award winner ( given to outstanding members of Microsoft's technical communities based on contributions made during the previous 12 months to offline and online Microsoft-related technical communities.) and part of their program.
He doenst get paid but rather gets services and benefits according to MS.


As well as being on the board of Microsoft's CodePlex Foundation.