openSUSE Has A Problem, Is Seeking New Direction

[ninez]

That's the exact opposite of my experience with Arch. For the first few months things worked wonderfully, but after a few more months stuff began to break, packages began depending on other packages that weren't updated at the same time or that were updated but had a bug that broke something... in the end, when I finally gave up, my desktop was practically useless (it was KDE though, so I give Arch the benefit of the doubt in this case).

Well, updates in Arch are to be given special attention. While it's true breakage can happen, most of the time it requires just a little manual intervention to address the problem. (such as merging changes from .pacnew files into your configs), paying attention to Arch news about updates. I've found that when a nasty bug creeps in, usually it is fixed very quickly and comes through as an update. Regardless, in both situations, the solution is often as easy as downgrading until the next update.

I've only had one time where an update(s) did some harm, that i had little control over. i think it was xorg-server 1.10/11 maybe, and there were some issues with my wacom and gesture recognition software. by the second update after breakage, it was fixed. i just stuck with the last working xorg-server, until it was worked again. (that was like 4-5 days later).

Other things that i commonly have to deal with on updates (which i don't consider breakage) is having to do things like recompile vmware modules, and re-install nvidia whenever i upgrade my kernel.

As far as KDE, i don't use it. too much bloat and stuff that i don't really need, so i can't really comment, in any depth, as to how well the KDE experience is in Archlinux. I use Compiz/Gnome3 (without GDM, gnome-panel and some other gnome components) on both my Arch installs. it seems to work well, and complexity is reduced by only using / running the components i need.

[prophet5]

I can see a problem with rolling releases that no one has mentioned yet. System Requirements. At some point the software will want more than your current hardware can give. No problem if you can afford to replace your gear fairly regularly. I can't. I'm using Kubuntu 11.04 with KDE 4.7. I did upgrade to 11.10 and KDE 4.8, and it ate my system; as did OpenSuse 12.1. I normally don't upgrade but I wanted KDE 4.8. My problem is my hardware is aging, and to replace the CPU or finding more memory means "Get New Everything" (well I can still get memory at least). It might be nice to have a "minimum system requirements" listed on distro websites before you jump in and do that dist-upgrade. Subsequently I disable any update notification and keep the system static. The only thing I update regularly is the nvidia driver.

I hope you guys get what I mean. My thoughts are somewhat fragmented today (no coffee )

[ninez]

I can see a problem with rolling releases that no one has mentioned yet. System Requirements. At some point the software will want more than your current hardware can give. No problem if you can afford to replace your gear fairly regularly. I can't. I'm using Kubuntu 11.04 with KDE 4.7. I did upgrade to 11.10 and KDE 4.8, and it ate my system; as did OpenSuse 12.1. I normally don't upgrade but I wanted KDE 4.8. My problem is my hardware is aging, and to replace the CPU or finding more memory means "Get New Everything" (well I can still get memory at least). It might be nice to have a "minimum system requirements" listed on distro websites before you jump in and do that dist-upgrade. Subsequently I disable any update notification and keep the system static. The only thing I update regularly is the nvidia driver.

I hope you guys get what I mean. My thoughts are somewhat fragmented today (no coffee )

Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing

[prophet5]

Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing

I like KDE. My system runs KDE 4.7 really well and isn't THAT old: Core2 duo, GTX260, only the 1gig of ram though. I just wasn't prepared for the increase in system resources in a point release. I'm sure adding more memory would have solved most of my woes. A little warning would have been nice.

Common sense: I agree, which is why I don't apply system updates as a rule

[ninez]

I like KDE. My system runs KDE 4.7 really well and isn't THAT old: Core2 duo, GTX260, only the 1gig of ram though. I just wasn't prepared for the increase in system resources in a point release. I'm sure adding more memory would have solved most of my woes. A little warning would have been nice.

Seems like a point release shouldn't cause that big of a problem. Are you sure it wasn't a regression? I would consider your system a little dated, but certainly not that old. One gig of RAM is pretty brutal though, and i would agree - that is probably a big part of the problem, if you are using a slower HDD that would contribute too.

What i like to do, in regards to having some warning (at least on Archlinux), is to subscribe to the relevant mailing lists, like announcements and such. I usually won't update right away (depending on the packages significance), and consult the forums to see if any of the 'new posts' are bugs/problems i might encounter, before applying them.

Common sense: I agree, which is why I don't apply system updates as a rule

lol.. You agree to what, exactly? That systems that can't run bloated DEs should be swapped out for something lighter?

...which is what i was referring to as 'common sense' and did NOT imply that it is 'common sense' to not update your machine. anyway, it is surprising that so much would be packed in a point release that would make your desktop that slow. Did you track what processes where sucking up all of your resources?

[alcalde]

Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing

KDE isn't "bloated"... it has features. That said, I run OpenSUSE 12.1 with KDE on a laptop with a single core, 1.8GHz, 32-bit AMD Sempron, 512MB of DDR, and a 75GB, 4200RPM IDE hard drive. If it can handle those specs, I think it should be runnable on anyone's desktop.

[ninez]

KDE isn't "bloated"... it has features.

Vista and win7 aren't bloated, either - they have features ... just like KDE has lots of features. </sarcasm>

That said, I run OpenSUSE 12.1 with KDE on a laptop with a single core, 1.8GHz, 32-bit AMD Sempron, 512MB of DDR, and a 75GB, 4200RPM IDE hard drive. If it can handle those specs, I think it should be runnable on anyone's desktop.

So it would appear then that Prophet5's KDE problems probably were a regression or some upgrade issue, since you are able to run it okay - what is your resource usage? and are you using things like plasma - or have you disabled things in KDE, to better work on your hardware?

I know when i had 4.7 installed on this machine, it was using twice as much resources as the default Gnome(Shell) experience, and 3 times 4X what my trimmed-down Gnome/Compiz desktop uses. it also happens to pull in a lot of packages and take up a lot of space;

1) kde-wallpapers 2) kdeaccessibility-jovie 3) kdeaccessibility-kaccessible
4) kdeaccessibility-kmag 5) kdeaccessibility-kmousetool 6) kdeaccessibility-kmouth
7) kdeadmin-kcron 8) kdeadmin-ksystemlog 9) kdeadmin-kuser
10) kdeadmin-system-config-printer-kde 11) kdeartwork-aurorae
12) kdeartwork-colorschemes 13) kdeartwork-desktopthemes 14) kdeartwork-emoticons
15) kdeartwork-iconthemes 16) kdeartwork-kscreensaver 17) kdeartwork-sounds
18) kdeartwork-styles 19) kdeartwork-wallpapers 20) kdeartwork-weatherwallpapers
21) kdebase-dolphin 22) kdebase-kdepasswd 23) kdebase-kdialog
24) kdebase-keditbookmarks 25) kdebase-kfind 26) kdebase-konq-plugins
27) kdebase-konqueror 28) kdebase-konsole 29) kdebase-kwrite 30) kdebase-plasma
31) kdebase-workspace 32) kdeedu-analitza 33) kdeedu-blinken 34) kdeedu-cantor
35) kdeedu-kalgebra 36) kdeedu-kalzium 37) kdeedu-kanagram 38) kdeedu-kbruch
39) kdeedu-kgeography 40) kdeedu-khangman 41) kdeedu-kig 42) kdeedu-kiten
43) kdeedu-klettres 44) kdeedu-kmplot 45) kdeedu-kstars 46) kdeedu-ktouch
47) kdeedu-kturtle 48) kdeedu-kwordquiz 49) kdeedu-marble 50) kdeedu-parley
51) kdeedu-rocs 52) kdeedu-step 53) kdegames-bomber 54) kdegames-bovo
55) kdegames-granatier 56) kdegames-kajongg 57) kdegames-kapman 58) kdegames-katomic
59) kdegames-kbattleship 60) kdegames-kblackbox 61) kdegames-kblocks
62) kdegames-kbounce 63) kdegames-kbreakout 64) kdegames-kdiamond
65) kdegames-kfourinline 66) kdegames-kgoldrunner 67) kdegames-kigo
68) kdegames-killbots 69) kdegames-kiriki 70) kdegames-kjumpingcube
71) kdegames-klickety 72) kdegames-klines 73) kdegames-kmahjongg 74) kdegames-kmines
75) kdegames-knetwalk 76) kdegames-kolf 77) kdegames-kollision 78) kdegames-konquest
79) kdegames-kpatience 80) kdegames-kreversi 81) kdegames-kshisen 82) kdegames-ksirk
83) kdegames-kspaceduel 84) kdegames-ksquares 85) kdegames-ksudoku
86) kdegames-ktron 87) kdegames-ktuberling 88) kdegames-kubrick 89) kdegames-lskat
90) kdegames-palapeli 91) kdegraphics-gwenview 92) kdegraphics-kamera
93) kdegraphics-kcolorchooser 94) kdegraphics-kgamma 95) kdegraphics-kolourpaint
96) kdegraphics-kruler 97) kdegraphics-ksnapshot 98) kdegraphics-okular
99) kdemultimedia-dragonplayer 100) kdemultimedia-ffmpegthumbs 101) kdemultimedia-juk
102) kdemultimedia-kioslave 103) kdemultimedia-kmix 104) kdemultimedia-kscd
105) kdemultimedia-mplayerthumbs 106) kdenetwork-filesharing 107) kdenetwork-kdnssd
108) kdenetwork-kget 109) kdenetwork-kopete 110) kdenetwork-kppp
111) kdenetwork-krdc 112) kdenetwork-krfb 113) kdepim-akonadiconsole
114) kdepim-akregator 115) kdepim-blogilo 116) kdepim-console
117) kdepim-kaddressbook 118) kdepim-kalarm 119) kdepim-kjots 120) kdepim-kleopatra
121) kdepim-kmail 122) kdepim-knode 123) kdepim-knotes 124) kdepim-kontact
125) kdepim-korganizer 126) kdepim-kresources 127) kdepim-ktimetracker
128) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bball 129) kdeplasma-addons-applets-binary-clock
130) kdeplasma-addons-applets-blackboard 131) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bookmarks
132) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bubblemon 133) kdeplasma-addons-applets-calculator
134) kdeplasma-addons-applets-charselect 135) kdeplasma-addons-applets-comic
136) kdeplasma-addons-applets-community 137) kdeplasma-addons-applets-dict
138) kdeplasma-addons-applets-eyes 139) kdeplasma-addons-applets-fifteenpuzzle
140) kdeplasma-addons-applets-filewatcher 141) kdeplasma-addons-applets-frame
142) kdeplasma-addons-applets-fuzzy-clock 143) kdeplasma-addons-applets-icontasks
144) kdeplasma-addons-applets-incomingmsg 145) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kdeobservatory
146) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kimpanel 147) kdeplasma-addons-applets-knowledgebase
148) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kolourpicker 149) kdeplasma-addons-applets-konqprofiles
150) kdeplasma-addons-applets-konsoleprofiles 151) kdeplasma-addons-applets-lancelot
152) kdeplasma-addons-applets-leavenote 153) kdeplasma-addons-applets-life
154) kdeplasma-addons-applets-luna 155) kdeplasma-addons-applets-magnifique
156) kdeplasma-addons-applets-mediaplayer 157) kdeplasma-addons-applets-microblog
158) kdeplasma-addons-applets-news 159) kdeplasma-addons-applets-notes
160) kdeplasma-addons-applets-nowplaying 161) kdeplasma-addons-applets-paste
162) kdeplasma-addons-applets-pastebin 163) kdeplasma-addons-applets-plasmaboard
164) kdeplasma-addons-applets-previewer 165) kdeplasma-addons-applets-qalculate
166) kdeplasma-addons-applets-rememberthemilk 167) kdeplasma-addons-applets-rssnow
168) kdeplasma-addons-applets-showdashboard 169) kdeplasma-addons-applets-showdesktop
170) kdeplasma-addons-applets-social-news 171) kdeplasma-addons-applets-spellcheck
172) kdeplasma-addons-applets-systemloadviewer 173) kdeplasma-addons-applets-timer
174) kdeplasma-addons-applets-unitconverter 175) kdeplasma-addons-applets-weather
176) kdeplasma-addons-applets-weatherstation 177) kdeplasma-addons-applets-webslice
178) kdeplasma-addons-containments 179) kdeplasma-addons-runners-audioplayercontrol
180) kdeplasma-addons-runners-browserhistory 181) kdeplasma-addons-runners-characters
182) kdeplasma-addons-runners-contacts 183) kdeplasma-addons-runners-converter
184) kdeplasma-addons-runners-datetime 185) kdeplasma-addons-runners-events
186) kdeplasma-addons-runners-katesessions
187) kdeplasma-addons-runners-konquerorsessions
188) kdeplasma-addons-runners-konsolesessions 189) kdeplasma-addons-runners-kopete
190) kdeplasma-addons-runners-mediawiki 191) kdeplasma-addons-runners-spellchecker
192) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-mandelbrot 193) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-marble
194) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-pattern 195) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-potd
196) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-virus 197) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-weather
198) kdesdk-cervisia 199) kdesdk-dolphin-plugins 200) kdesdk-kapptemplate
201) kdesdk-kate 202) kdesdk-kcachegrind 203) kdesdk-kdeaccounts-plugin
204) kdesdk-kdepalettes 205) kdesdk-kioslave 206) kdesdk-kmtrace 207) kdesdk-kompare
208) kdesdk-kpartloader 209) kdesdk-kprofilemethod 210) kdesdk-kstartperf
211) kdesdk-kuiviewer 212) kdesdk-lokalize 213) kdesdk-okteta 214) kdesdk-poxml
215) kdesdk-scripts 216) kdesdk-strigi-analyzer 217) kdesdk-umbrello
218) kdetoys-amor 219) kdetoys-kteatime 220) kdetoys-ktux 221) kdeutils-ark
222) kdeutils-filelight 223) kdeutils-kcalc 224) kdeutils-kcharselect
225) kdeutils-kdf 226) kdeutils-kfloppy 227) kdeutils-kgpg
228) kdeutils-kremotecontrol 229) kdeutils-ksecrets 230) kdeutils-ktimer
231) kdeutils-kwallet 232) kdeutils-printer-applet 233) kdeutils-superkaramba
234) kdeutils-sweeper 235) kdewebdev-kfilereplace 236) kdewebdev-kimagemapeditor
237) kdewebdev-klinkstatus 238) kdewebdev-kommander

KDE pulls in 240 packages, not including the packages that i already have installed (such as QT4). Now, some of these i can ditch, but it's still quite large. if i was to do the same thing for Gnome - i would see like 50 packages (if even). So yes, KDE is bloated compared to most other DEs, it is feature rich, but that doesn't mean it isn't bloated. if i had KDE installed, i would be using very few of the features offered by the DE - therefore, i would be running a bloated desktop, because that is exactly what software bloat is - including more and more features that aren't being used. Which is why i ditched KDE the last time i delved in it.

[Cyber Killer]

The list that you posted shows that somebody who made a metapackage to install KDE on your disto is clueless as to what is needed in KDE.

This is what the base KDE metapackage pulls on openSUSE:

kdebase4-workspace
dolphin
kwin
kdebase4-session
kwrite
plasmoid-folderview

that would be... 6 packages. Yeah, right... bloated ;-P

ok, ok, for reference here is the full list of recommended packages to pull with the ones above:

avahi
pulseaudio
MozillaFirefox
susehelp
desktop-data-openSUSE
gdb
kwebkitpart
droid-fonts
xdg-user-dirs
plasma-addons
kdm
polkit-default-privs
pulseaudio-utils
yast2-control-center-qt
skanlite
konqueror
pulseaudio-module-bluetooth
pulseaudio-module-lirc
pulseaudio-module-x11
pulseaudio-module-zeroconf
alsa-plugins-pulse
kaddressbook
kmail
knotes
konsole
kontact
korganizer
soprano-backend-redland
oxygen-gtk
akregator
kdepim4-wizards
kio_iso
plasmoid-networkmanagement
plasmoid-quickaccess
soprano-backend-virtuoso
kcm_gtk
kdebase4-nsplugin
kdenetwork4-filesharing
kdepasswd
keditbookmarks
kvkbd
pinentry-qt4
pulseaudio-module-jack
synaptiks

Still far from even 100, not to mention 240.

[ninez]

The list that you posted shows that somebody who made a metapackage to install KDE on your disto is clueless as to what is needed in KDE.

That was there to show how much 'crap' there is in KDE land. Furthermore, yes i posted the output from the kde meta package, that does not mean i would have to install all of that. KDE is broken up in Arch, you can install whatever you like.

This is what the base KDE metapackage pulls on openSUSE:
that would be... 6 packages. Yeah, right... bloated ;-P

And those 6 packages still are more resource heavy than any other DE that i've ever used in linux land.

EDIT: AHA! now you change your tune - 'sorry i didn't mean 6 - i really mean you need a bunch.' lol...and on closer inspection i get i would find that i actually would need more than you are posting to have a 'good experience'...

[Cyber Killer]

You should also check how much crap there is in GNOME land. Hint: a comparable amount, as both of these DE's strive for feature completeness so they each have their respective apps for everything that you might want to do. The difference is that the KDE apps use a common set of features, stuff like e.g. the ability to put a URL in the file open dialog and it will get the file from the net and open it.

Anyway - why the hate? You don't like large DE's, then it's your choice, be happy with your LXDE.