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Thread: openSUSE Has A Problem, Is Seeking New Direction

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by devius View Post
    That's the exact opposite of my experience with Arch. For the first few months things worked wonderfully, but after a few more months stuff began to break, packages began depending on other packages that weren't updated at the same time or that were updated but had a bug that broke something... in the end, when I finally gave up, my desktop was practically useless (it was KDE though, so I give Arch the benefit of the doubt in this case).
    Well, updates in Arch are to be given special attention. While it's true breakage can happen, most of the time it requires just a little manual intervention to address the problem. (such as merging changes from .pacnew files into your configs), paying attention to Arch news about updates. I've found that when a nasty bug creeps in, usually it is fixed very quickly and comes through as an update. Regardless, in both situations, the solution is often as easy as downgrading until the next update.

    I've only had one time where an update(s) did some harm, that i had little control over. i think it was xorg-server 1.10/11 maybe, and there were some issues with my wacom and gesture recognition software. by the second update after breakage, it was fixed. i just stuck with the last working xorg-server, until it was worked again. (that was like 4-5 days later).

    Other things that i commonly have to deal with on updates (which i don't consider breakage) is having to do things like recompile vmware modules, and re-install nvidia whenever i upgrade my kernel.

    As far as KDE, i don't use it. too much bloat and stuff that i don't really need, so i can't really comment, in any depth, as to how well the KDE experience is in Archlinux. I use Compiz/Gnome3 (without GDM, gnome-panel and some other gnome components) on both my Arch installs. it seems to work well, and complexity is reduced by only using / running the components i need.

  2. #52
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    I can see a problem with rolling releases that no one has mentioned yet. System Requirements. At some point the software will want more than your current hardware can give. No problem if you can afford to replace your gear fairly regularly. I can't. I'm using Kubuntu 11.04 with KDE 4.7. I did upgrade to 11.10 and KDE 4.8, and it ate my system; as did OpenSuse 12.1. I normally don't upgrade but I wanted KDE 4.8. My problem is my hardware is aging, and to replace the CPU or finding more memory means "Get New Everything" (well I can still get memory at least). It might be nice to have a "minimum system requirements" listed on distro websites before you jump in and do that dist-upgrade. Subsequently I disable any update notification and keep the system static. The only thing I update regularly is the nvidia driver.

    I hope you guys get what I mean. My thoughts are somewhat fragmented today (no coffee )

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by prophet5 View Post
    I can see a problem with rolling releases that no one has mentioned yet. System Requirements. At some point the software will want more than your current hardware can give. No problem if you can afford to replace your gear fairly regularly. I can't. I'm using Kubuntu 11.04 with KDE 4.7. I did upgrade to 11.10 and KDE 4.8, and it ate my system; as did OpenSuse 12.1. I normally don't upgrade but I wanted KDE 4.8. My problem is my hardware is aging, and to replace the CPU or finding more memory means "Get New Everything" (well I can still get memory at least). It might be nice to have a "minimum system requirements" listed on distro websites before you jump in and do that dist-upgrade. Subsequently I disable any update notification and keep the system static. The only thing I update regularly is the nvidia driver.

    I hope you guys get what I mean. My thoughts are somewhat fragmented today (no coffee )
    Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

    I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

    I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing
    I like KDE. My system runs KDE 4.7 really well and isn't THAT old: Core2 duo, GTX260, only the 1gig of ram though. I just wasn't prepared for the increase in system resources in a point release. I'm sure adding more memory would have solved most of my woes. A little warning would have been nice.

    Common sense: I agree, which is why I don't apply system updates as a rule

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by prophet5 View Post
    I like KDE. My system runs KDE 4.7 really well and isn't THAT old: Core2 duo, GTX260, only the 1gig of ram though. I just wasn't prepared for the increase in system resources in a point release. I'm sure adding more memory would have solved most of my woes. A little warning would have been nice.
    Seems like a point release shouldn't cause that big of a problem. Are you sure it wasn't a regression? I would consider your system a little dated, but certainly not that old. One gig of RAM is pretty brutal though, and i would agree - that is probably a big part of the problem, if you are using a slower HDD that would contribute too.

    What i like to do, in regards to having some warning (at least on Archlinux), is to subscribe to the relevant mailing lists, like announcements and such. I usually won't update right away (depending on the packages significance), and consult the forums to see if any of the 'new posts' are bugs/problems i might encounter, before applying them.

    Quote Originally Posted by prophet5 View Post
    Common sense: I agree, which is why I don't apply system updates as a rule
    lol.. You agree to what, exactly? That systems that can't run bloated DEs should be swapped out for something lighter?

    ...which is what i was referring to as 'common sense' and did NOT imply that it is 'common sense' to not update your machine. anyway, it is surprising that so much would be packed in a point release that would make your desktop that slow. Did you track what processes where sucking up all of your resources?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    Rolling Releases don't force you to buy new hardware ~ in the scenario where your hardware has aged and can't keep up, you should really be considering switching to a lighter DE, rather than sticking with a bloated heavy desktop like KDE....I tend to think this should be common sense.

    I do however think having minimum system requirements for software is always a good thing
    KDE isn't "bloated"... it has features. That said, I run OpenSUSE 12.1 with KDE on a laptop with a single core, 1.8GHz, 32-bit AMD Sempron, 512MB of DDR, and a 75GB, 4200RPM IDE hard drive. If it can handle those specs, I think it should be runnable on anyone's desktop.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by alcalde View Post
    KDE isn't "bloated"... it has features.
    Vista and win7 aren't bloated, either - they have features ... just like KDE has lots of features. </sarcasm>

    Quote Originally Posted by alcalde View Post
    That said, I run OpenSUSE 12.1 with KDE on a laptop with a single core, 1.8GHz, 32-bit AMD Sempron, 512MB of DDR, and a 75GB, 4200RPM IDE hard drive. If it can handle those specs, I think it should be runnable on anyone's desktop.
    So it would appear then that Prophet5's KDE problems probably were a regression or some upgrade issue, since you are able to run it okay - what is your resource usage? and are you using things like plasma - or have you disabled things in KDE, to better work on your hardware?

    I know when i had 4.7 installed on this machine, it was using twice as much resources as the default Gnome(Shell) experience, and 3 times 4X what my trimmed-down Gnome/Compiz desktop uses. it also happens to pull in a lot of packages and take up a lot of space;

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacman package manager
    1) kde-wallpapers 2) kdeaccessibility-jovie 3) kdeaccessibility-kaccessible
    4) kdeaccessibility-kmag 5) kdeaccessibility-kmousetool 6) kdeaccessibility-kmouth
    7) kdeadmin-kcron 8) kdeadmin-ksystemlog 9) kdeadmin-kuser
    10) kdeadmin-system-config-printer-kde 11) kdeartwork-aurorae
    12) kdeartwork-colorschemes 13) kdeartwork-desktopthemes 14) kdeartwork-emoticons
    15) kdeartwork-iconthemes 16) kdeartwork-kscreensaver 17) kdeartwork-sounds
    18) kdeartwork-styles 19) kdeartwork-wallpapers 20) kdeartwork-weatherwallpapers
    21) kdebase-dolphin 22) kdebase-kdepasswd 23) kdebase-kdialog
    24) kdebase-keditbookmarks 25) kdebase-kfind 26) kdebase-konq-plugins
    27) kdebase-konqueror 28) kdebase-konsole 29) kdebase-kwrite 30) kdebase-plasma
    31) kdebase-workspace 32) kdeedu-analitza 33) kdeedu-blinken 34) kdeedu-cantor
    35) kdeedu-kalgebra 36) kdeedu-kalzium 37) kdeedu-kanagram 38) kdeedu-kbruch
    39) kdeedu-kgeography 40) kdeedu-khangman 41) kdeedu-kig 42) kdeedu-kiten
    43) kdeedu-klettres 44) kdeedu-kmplot 45) kdeedu-kstars 46) kdeedu-ktouch
    47) kdeedu-kturtle 48) kdeedu-kwordquiz 49) kdeedu-marble 50) kdeedu-parley
    51) kdeedu-rocs 52) kdeedu-step 53) kdegames-bomber 54) kdegames-bovo
    55) kdegames-granatier 56) kdegames-kajongg 57) kdegames-kapman 58) kdegames-katomic
    59) kdegames-kbattleship 60) kdegames-kblackbox 61) kdegames-kblocks
    62) kdegames-kbounce 63) kdegames-kbreakout 64) kdegames-kdiamond
    65) kdegames-kfourinline 66) kdegames-kgoldrunner 67) kdegames-kigo
    68) kdegames-killbots 69) kdegames-kiriki 70) kdegames-kjumpingcube
    71) kdegames-klickety 72) kdegames-klines 73) kdegames-kmahjongg 74) kdegames-kmines
    75) kdegames-knetwalk 76) kdegames-kolf 77) kdegames-kollision 78) kdegames-konquest
    79) kdegames-kpatience 80) kdegames-kreversi 81) kdegames-kshisen 82) kdegames-ksirk
    83) kdegames-kspaceduel 84) kdegames-ksquares 85) kdegames-ksudoku
    86) kdegames-ktron 87) kdegames-ktuberling 88) kdegames-kubrick 89) kdegames-lskat
    90) kdegames-palapeli 91) kdegraphics-gwenview 92) kdegraphics-kamera
    93) kdegraphics-kcolorchooser 94) kdegraphics-kgamma 95) kdegraphics-kolourpaint
    96) kdegraphics-kruler 97) kdegraphics-ksnapshot 98) kdegraphics-okular
    99) kdemultimedia-dragonplayer 100) kdemultimedia-ffmpegthumbs 101) kdemultimedia-juk
    102) kdemultimedia-kioslave 103) kdemultimedia-kmix 104) kdemultimedia-kscd
    105) kdemultimedia-mplayerthumbs 106) kdenetwork-filesharing 107) kdenetwork-kdnssd
    108) kdenetwork-kget 109) kdenetwork-kopete 110) kdenetwork-kppp
    111) kdenetwork-krdc 112) kdenetwork-krfb 113) kdepim-akonadiconsole
    114) kdepim-akregator 115) kdepim-blogilo 116) kdepim-console
    117) kdepim-kaddressbook 118) kdepim-kalarm 119) kdepim-kjots 120) kdepim-kleopatra
    121) kdepim-kmail 122) kdepim-knode 123) kdepim-knotes 124) kdepim-kontact
    125) kdepim-korganizer 126) kdepim-kresources 127) kdepim-ktimetracker
    128) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bball 129) kdeplasma-addons-applets-binary-clock
    130) kdeplasma-addons-applets-blackboard 131) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bookmarks
    132) kdeplasma-addons-applets-bubblemon 133) kdeplasma-addons-applets-calculator
    134) kdeplasma-addons-applets-charselect 135) kdeplasma-addons-applets-comic
    136) kdeplasma-addons-applets-community 137) kdeplasma-addons-applets-dict
    138) kdeplasma-addons-applets-eyes 139) kdeplasma-addons-applets-fifteenpuzzle
    140) kdeplasma-addons-applets-filewatcher 141) kdeplasma-addons-applets-frame
    142) kdeplasma-addons-applets-fuzzy-clock 143) kdeplasma-addons-applets-icontasks
    144) kdeplasma-addons-applets-incomingmsg 145) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kdeobservatory
    146) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kimpanel 147) kdeplasma-addons-applets-knowledgebase
    148) kdeplasma-addons-applets-kolourpicker 149) kdeplasma-addons-applets-konqprofiles
    150) kdeplasma-addons-applets-konsoleprofiles 151) kdeplasma-addons-applets-lancelot
    152) kdeplasma-addons-applets-leavenote 153) kdeplasma-addons-applets-life
    154) kdeplasma-addons-applets-luna 155) kdeplasma-addons-applets-magnifique
    156) kdeplasma-addons-applets-mediaplayer 157) kdeplasma-addons-applets-microblog
    158) kdeplasma-addons-applets-news 159) kdeplasma-addons-applets-notes
    160) kdeplasma-addons-applets-nowplaying 161) kdeplasma-addons-applets-paste
    162) kdeplasma-addons-applets-pastebin 163) kdeplasma-addons-applets-plasmaboard
    164) kdeplasma-addons-applets-previewer 165) kdeplasma-addons-applets-qalculate
    166) kdeplasma-addons-applets-rememberthemilk 167) kdeplasma-addons-applets-rssnow
    168) kdeplasma-addons-applets-showdashboard 169) kdeplasma-addons-applets-showdesktop
    170) kdeplasma-addons-applets-social-news 171) kdeplasma-addons-applets-spellcheck
    172) kdeplasma-addons-applets-systemloadviewer 173) kdeplasma-addons-applets-timer
    174) kdeplasma-addons-applets-unitconverter 175) kdeplasma-addons-applets-weather
    176) kdeplasma-addons-applets-weatherstation 177) kdeplasma-addons-applets-webslice
    178) kdeplasma-addons-containments 179) kdeplasma-addons-runners-audioplayercontrol
    180) kdeplasma-addons-runners-browserhistory 181) kdeplasma-addons-runners-characters
    182) kdeplasma-addons-runners-contacts 183) kdeplasma-addons-runners-converter
    184) kdeplasma-addons-runners-datetime 185) kdeplasma-addons-runners-events
    186) kdeplasma-addons-runners-katesessions
    187) kdeplasma-addons-runners-konquerorsessions
    188) kdeplasma-addons-runners-konsolesessions 189) kdeplasma-addons-runners-kopete
    190) kdeplasma-addons-runners-mediawiki 191) kdeplasma-addons-runners-spellchecker
    192) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-mandelbrot 193) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-marble
    194) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-pattern 195) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-potd
    196) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-virus 197) kdeplasma-addons-wallpapers-weather
    198) kdesdk-cervisia 199) kdesdk-dolphin-plugins 200) kdesdk-kapptemplate
    201) kdesdk-kate 202) kdesdk-kcachegrind 203) kdesdk-kdeaccounts-plugin
    204) kdesdk-kdepalettes 205) kdesdk-kioslave 206) kdesdk-kmtrace 207) kdesdk-kompare
    208) kdesdk-kpartloader 209) kdesdk-kprofilemethod 210) kdesdk-kstartperf
    211) kdesdk-kuiviewer 212) kdesdk-lokalize 213) kdesdk-okteta 214) kdesdk-poxml
    215) kdesdk-scripts 216) kdesdk-strigi-analyzer 217) kdesdk-umbrello
    218) kdetoys-amor 219) kdetoys-kteatime 220) kdetoys-ktux 221) kdeutils-ark
    222) kdeutils-filelight 223) kdeutils-kcalc 224) kdeutils-kcharselect
    225) kdeutils-kdf 226) kdeutils-kfloppy 227) kdeutils-kgpg
    228) kdeutils-kremotecontrol 229) kdeutils-ksecrets 230) kdeutils-ktimer
    231) kdeutils-kwallet 232) kdeutils-printer-applet 233) kdeutils-superkaramba
    234) kdeutils-sweeper 235) kdewebdev-kfilereplace 236) kdewebdev-kimagemapeditor
    237) kdewebdev-klinkstatus 238) kdewebdev-kommander
    KDE pulls in 240 packages, not including the packages that i already have installed (such as QT4). Now, some of these i can ditch, but it's still quite large. if i was to do the same thing for Gnome - i would see like 50 packages (if even). So yes, KDE is bloated compared to most other DEs, it is feature rich, but that doesn't mean it isn't bloated. if i had KDE installed, i would be using very few of the features offered by the DE - therefore, i would be running a bloated desktop, because that is exactly what software bloat is - including more and more features that aren't being used. Which is why i ditched KDE the last time i delved in it.

  8. #58
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    The list that you posted shows that somebody who made a metapackage to install KDE on your disto is clueless as to what is needed in KDE.

    This is what the base KDE metapackage pulls on openSUSE:
    kdebase4-workspace
    dolphin
    kwin
    kdebase4-session
    kwrite
    plasmoid-folderview
    that would be... 6 packages. Yeah, right... bloated ;-P

    ok, ok, for reference here is the full list of recommended packages to pull with the ones above:
    avahi
    pulseaudio
    MozillaFirefox
    susehelp
    desktop-data-openSUSE
    gdb
    kwebkitpart
    droid-fonts
    xdg-user-dirs
    plasma-addons
    kdm
    polkit-default-privs
    pulseaudio-utils
    yast2-control-center-qt
    skanlite
    konqueror
    pulseaudio-module-bluetooth
    pulseaudio-module-lirc
    pulseaudio-module-x11
    pulseaudio-module-zeroconf
    alsa-plugins-pulse
    kaddressbook
    kmail
    knotes
    konsole
    kontact
    korganizer
    soprano-backend-redland
    oxygen-gtk
    akregator
    kdepim4-wizards
    kio_iso
    plasmoid-networkmanagement
    plasmoid-quickaccess
    soprano-backend-virtuoso
    kcm_gtk
    kdebase4-nsplugin
    kdenetwork4-filesharing
    kdepasswd
    keditbookmarks
    kvkbd
    pinentry-qt4
    pulseaudio-module-jack
    synaptiks
    Still far from even 100, not to mention 240.
    Last edited by Cyber Killer; 06-18-2012 at 10:32 AM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber Killer View Post
    The list that you posted shows that somebody who made a metapackage to install KDE on your disto is clueless as to what is needed in KDE.
    That was there to show how much 'crap' there is in KDE land. Furthermore, yes i posted the output from the kde meta package, that does not mean i would have to install all of that. KDE is broken up in Arch, you can install whatever you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyber Killer View Post
    This is what the base KDE metapackage pulls on openSUSE:
    that would be... 6 packages. Yeah, right... bloated ;-P
    And those 6 packages still are more resource heavy than any other DE that i've ever used in linux land.

    EDIT: AHA! now you change your tune - 'sorry i didn't mean 6 - i really mean you need a bunch.' lol...and on closer inspection i get i would find that i actually would need more than you are posting to have a 'good experience'...
    Last edited by ninez; 06-18-2012 at 10:40 AM.

  10. #60
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    You should also check how much crap there is in GNOME land. Hint: a comparable amount, as both of these DE's strive for feature completeness so they each have their respective apps for everything that you might want to do. The difference is that the KDE apps use a common set of features, stuff like e.g. the ability to put a URL in the file open dialog and it will get the file from the net and open it.

    Anyway - why the hate? You don't like large DE's, then it's your choice, be happy with your LXDE.

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