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Thread: Linus Torvalds Calls NVIDIA The Worst Company Ever

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Those pathetic losers have comments closed. They probably could guess that their lie would otherwise could be challenged. User experience? Ha-ha, when you install Linux and it's built-in opensource driver is half-working, this is very awkward experience. And downloading some blob from hell knows where and why is so Windws way of doing the things... something that Nvidia fails to understand all the time.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
    User experience? Ha-ha, when you install Linux and it's built-in opensource driver is half-working, this is very awkward experience. And downloading some blob from hell knows where and why is so Windws way of doing the things... something that Nvidia fails to understand all the time.
    Maybe you should use more user friendly distribution then? Ubuntu provides easy installer for propietary drivers and distributions like Chakra install with them by default.

  3. #113
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    And do you know a distribution with working bumblebee support out of the box? preinstalling nvidia drivers and enabling on boot is not that hard, implemented it in several ways during the last years. also acritox had one very interesting approach we used for kanotix hellfire.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    I think Linus is over-esteeming himself though.
    Based on what?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Ehhhh... Not sure that Linux "dominates" in the server space (assuming that "majority" doesn't translate to "dominate", and even then "majority" is questionable depending on which stats one looks at). Depends on the server type I guess.
    I was relating to the other free server OS, BSD*, and Linux is indeed dominating the BSD's in the server space.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    where I intended to point out that consumer-oriented software and hardware were, for a long time, not supported on Linux. I remember the days where "if it's not open source, GTFOff my system" were quite commonplace.
    Well that's up to each and everyone, obviously the hardnosed policy against proprietary drivers has served Linux incredibly well as it boasts the highest out-of-the-box hardware support by far and ALSO has support from proprietary drivers while other systems like the BSD's/Solaris etc which has more stable ABI's and doesn't make it hard for proprietary drivers have nowhere near the hardware support Linux does.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Linux does dominate the HPC sector... of which some of those systems are hooked into NVIDIA GPUs driven by those awfully horrible NVIDIA drivers.
    NVidia makes drivers for Linux because Linux is big in 3D/SFX/HPC/Supercomputers/Clusters, not the other way around. If you (like me) use NVidia on the desktop, know that NVidia doesn't give a shit about _you_, they are offering their quality proprietary for Linux because it's used by big companies in the aforementioned sectors. This is reflected in commercial software aswell, Linux despite it's tiny desktop marketshare has the latest versions of top-of-the-line 3D software like Maya, XSI, Mudbox, Renderman, etc this is because the big 3D/SFX companies who have been using Linux as their high performance rendering farms now also wants to use it across their entire pipelines.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    On the desktop -- one of the biggest OS markets -- obviously Linux is practically non-existent. That's not by accident.
    Windows dominates the desktop, and nothing else comes close, and that's not by accident but due to it coming preinstalled. Apple did a big push with an huge ad campaign including product placement in just about everything on tv and film which landed them ~10% market share after which they seem to have lost competitive interest in the desktop computer and instead is pushing tablets. There's no company other than Apple who has the financial means to go up against Microsoft which comes preinstalled on just about every desktop computer out there and if they can't compete then there's no chance anyone else could either. Secondly, unless you make a proprietary commercial os there's no money to make in the desktop space as it's not as if you can realistically make money selling support to desktop end users.

    On the other hand, no other system than Windows will ever be big on the desktop either, simply because unless Microsoft does something INCREDIBLY stupid (and no, not even Metro is stupid enough) the vast majority of people will not see any reason to switch operating systems from the one that came installed. They don't really care what OS it is as long as it launches their favourite webbrowser and games, as is being proven by how so many of the 'casual' computer users are now finding their needs fully satisfied by Ipads, which in turn is what is making Microsoft shit bricks and run with the Metro concept across the board, but hey, that's another story entirely.

    But that's ok, Linux will never be 'big' on the desktop, I have no problem with that. It's fully useable for me and a much better experience than what I had with Windows (up until XP64, I left the platform entirely as Vista started approaching). It's also free, fast, minimal on resources and open source.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Not to mention that Android's popularity would have been completely impossible if it weren't for the proprietary, closed-source binary blobs that people on this website are so frequent to deem the equivalent of Satan's spawn.
    Impossible? So you can't make a mobile smartphone without NVidia, or more to the point, without proprietary drivers?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    And without Android Linux would be, again, practically non-existent in the mobile space... as it was just a short couple of years ago.
    Is there a point to this? What exactly are you arguing?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    So personally I think Linus came off as a real childish turd. NVIDIA has helped and supported Linux plenty, in its own way, and much more than most companies out there have.
    NVidia hasn't supported 'Linux', they are supporting their customers who choose to run Linux. Those customers in question are not desktop users like you and me, whom NVidia wouldn't waste spit on but rather the large companies using Linux in the aforementioned sectors. Those large companies aren't interested in using Optimus and as such NVidia won't support it on Linux, because again they don't give a shit about Linux desktop end users.

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
    Those pathetic losers have comments closed. They probably could guess that their lie would otherwise could be challenged. User experience? Ha-ha, when you install Linux and it's built-in opensource driver is half-working, this is very awkward experience. And downloading some blob from hell knows where and why is so Windws way of doing the things... something that Nvidia fails to understand all the time.
    Just to clarify:

    That forum is not operated, owned or in any way financially supported by NVIDIA. Developers do visit the forum to take bug reports and post driver release announcements.

    When this topic was raised, the administrator / owner asked that it not be discussed on his forum. After which the forum suffered a significant amount of downtime. After being restored he posted the PR from NVIDIA and I haven't seen the topic been mentioned since.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teho View Post
    Maybe you should use more user friendly distribution then? Ubuntu provides easy installer for propietary drivers and distributions like Chakra install with them by default.
    In fact I use user-friendly Ubuntu most of time for desktop, but:
    1) I like when hardware works out of the box. Have you ever heard Plug-n-play word? Nvidia surely got it Windows way.
    2) And no, thank you, if I'll want smth full of blobs "by default", there is already Windows. No need for yet another cheap imitation.
    3) Distro maintainers are very limited in options when it comes to bugfixing and adaptation. And it's very noticeable in term of long standing bugs.
    4) Proprietary blob is inherently foreign stuff in opensource system. This implies bugs. From my experience, many unsuccessful OS upgrades to new Ubuntu version were due to to proprietary drivers.
    5) I trust to maintainers and opensource sw authors far more than I trust to some suspicious company and their uber-secret blobs.
    6) I don't see what's wrong if Aveage Joe (or me, you, whoever) would want to create own flavour of distro. However proprietary things not like free software. Free software welcomes this. Proprietary prohibits this. As for me, it's wrong to cripple this degree of freedom and smells like unfair competition.
    7) Even more, this puts less popular OSes at competetive disadvantage. I don't see why it should be forbidden to Haiku, NetBSD or whoever to try create fully-functional driver using kernel interface convenient for them. Who loses? Customers. They miss extra chance for new fresh competetive upstarts. It's wrong.
    8) On it's own, PCI-E is a platform-neutral bus. There is nothing wrong to have it on ARM, MIPS, PPC or whatever else. There is nothing wrong in putting any PCI-E device on any device with PCI-E bus. Artificially limiting it to x86 only is wrong way of doing things. It backstabs new developments once more. So less innovations, less competition. Let it stuck and rot. Who loses? Customers again.
    9) You see, if all people would become worthless consumers, we'll face huge troubles. As a civilization. So someone have to develop things further. Raising barriers on this way is wrong. That's why "I have all things working!" counts for you but does not counts for rest of world. If there will be no developers, things will get stuck.
    10) Nvidia don't respects other devs, forcing them to waste their time on reverse engineering. So why devs should show any respect? It's just a proper thing to show them finger for such hostility to developers.
    Last edited by 0xBADCODE; 06-19-2012 at 09:28 PM.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    When this topic was raised, the administrator / owner asked that it not be discussed on his forum.
    So now there is also censorship to shut up those unhappy with nvidia policy and hence interferring with their fat profits . That's what I would expect from proprietary companies and their fans. They always have to resort to tyranny and screw up someone, one way or another. And that's one of reasons why I dislike propritary approach.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
    So now there is also censorship to shut up those unhappy with nvidia policy and hence interferring with their fat profits . That's what I would expect from proprietary companies and their fans. They always have to resort to tyranny and screw up someone, one way or another. And that's one of reasons why I dislike propritary approach.
    It's a support forum not a place for religious wars. I kinda see why they want to keep the trolls away.

  9. #119
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    Default Linus was spot on: Preinstalled.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Looks like a Steve Ballmer moment to be honest. Slightly embarrassing, to say the least.

    Earlier in the talk somebody asked him why Linux had never taken off on the desktop. He completely misses the answer of course. The "open-source-only" religious fanatics had dominated the Linux community for 15+ years and pretty much relegated it to nothing more than a cheap alternative to other UNIX-like OSes (i.e., for the server / workstation markets). Even Google had to go heavy on non-GPL licenses to make Android successful.

    Of course, without NVIDIA's current efforts, Linux as a mainstream desktop is an absolute non-starter.
    Bullshit. Linus was spot on: Preinstalled.

    IMO every computer should be sold with a free OS preinstalled by default, and any commercial alternative (ie Windows) be optional by adding the license fee (microsoft tax); not the other way around.

    What had fanatics to do with anything? The GPL only affects you if you want to do modifications and then publicly redistribute said modifications without disclosing them. There is also lgpl and freebsd style licenses. Many corporations have no problem working with these, and there was a time were every hardware component had their whole technical manual available without stupid clauses, that is exactly what we need. The likes of nvidia are thankfully a minority.

    While Android is like 20% free 80% proprietary, Ubuntu is more like 90% free, while MacOSX is the opposite with like 10% free. If "fanatics" were such a nuisance, why bother with free components at all? Where is Copland OS? Free software is used by merits of quality and reliability vs the closed model.

    There is also people like Shuttleworth working to bring linux to the masses, not only focusing in a user oriented distro, but also dealing to have the OS come preinstalled in computers, or stand alone devices like TVs or even cellphones.

    The advantage of working open is a benefit, not a hindrance; but it takes time and effort to convince some corporate managerial types who are more used to secrecy and isolation (leading to bugs, security holes, etc). There is a whole school of tough about compete vs cooperate, which causes a never ending "re-invent the wheel" situation because the other guy won't or can't share. Humanity wouldn't have progressed without people copying and/or building upon the works of others.

    Nvidia needed for a mainstream desktop?... Maybe only if you are a gamer, anything else can already be done with other brands or even nouveau. This might be because the community has been slow with AMD/ATI, or some issues with few undocumented features there. Intel has traditionally fared better in that camp (with few exceptions), there also used to be others, the most promising bough by nvidia and sold for parts (3dfx).

    Perhaps someday the Chinese will come with a clone gpu architecture to rid us of this mess or at least open another path, same way they did their mipsel (loongsoon) cpu, they might take something, add a few changes, document it and mass produce it to break nvidia's position once for all.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by allquixotic View Post
    It's even simpler than that. Linux is coming everywhere whether you like it or not, and the companies that don't adapt to the new business model are going to lose out even with the old capitalistic system. It's simple: when Dell or System76 or whoever has to choose what hardware to ship on their OEM Linux boxes (which are coming eventually), they're going to choose the hardware with the best graphics drivers. If you don't have KMS or Wayland or Optimus or current-enough drivers to run on recent kernels or proper mode-switching support, you are going to get passed up. The same applies to Android, but replace KMS/Wayland/Optimus with whatever the latest craze is on ARM SoC graphics. Power saving? Open source drivers so that manufacturers can fix bugs themselves? Support for the latest OpenGL ES? Clearly there are more factors in selecting a well-working chip with a well-working driver than sheer performance.

    Nvidia doesn't need Linus Torvalds to tell them fuck you. They are fucking themselves just plenty on their own. Linus was just trying to wake them up so that maybe in the coming revolution they might survive, but if they don't, nobody -- absolutely nobody -- is going to miss them.

    It's clear now Microsoft is finished. They can't get it right in the mobile market which is the future. The Surface Tablet has had a poor reception when announced. Metro is enforced on Users who don't want it nor on a phone or tablet. Windows RM8 breaks their linage and divides their support and software products. Linux on the other hand is scalable and is suited for the biggest of computing to the smallest, low powered device.

    Who will command server farms, ARM. Who will command mobiles tablets, ARM. Who will command ARM, LINUX. There's the answer to the future.

    The famous people in computer, tomorrow, will be Linux figures.


    (If hardware vendors don't get on-board now, and with A1 drivers and products will be cutting their own prosperity.)

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