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Thread: Debian Wheezy To Take Up 73 CDs Or 11 DVDs

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by oliver View Post
    In a more positive light, that's a lot of open, free software!
    Nobody said having all of that OSS software wasn't a good thing, Evryone is more or less confounded as to why anyone needs the entire repo to be turned into .iso s and burned to disc. Especially since before you even download and burn it all new versions will almost certainly hit the repos.

    I.E. What is the target market? Stallman lookalike basement dwellers?

  2. #32
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    Default Never stopped me before!

    Quote Originally Posted by garegin View Post
    just to show the user unfriendliness of debian. it's the only major distro that does not have a single install disk. it's either netinstall, which has to pull the intall content from the internet or multiple disks. the only sane option is to use debian live which does come as a single disk
    I have used the netinst, the Debian Live, but I'm pretty sure I've just grabbed the first CD of an installation, and that has been fine. Somewhere, they need all of those images to contain the software SOMEWHERE, but that does NOT mean that any of us need to grab all of them!

    I look forward to seeing more Live instances. The last version I installed, I *requested* a *custom* Live CD, containing the base system and the software that I wanted. I installed it, then after I got it up and running - at a very quiet and stable period - I switched from Testing to Sid and upgraded the whole thing, smoothly, with zero issues and I have been using Sid ever since.

    Debian is a bit weak in the installation area compared to even its upstream variants, but frankly, most of its developers probably don't install very often, they run rolling upgrades regularly, whether using Testing, Sid, or a combo of Sid and Experimental. That partially explains why Debian is a bit weak compared to its competition in the installation technology; another reason is that Debian supports more architectures than any other software I know of!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    Nobody said having all of that OSS software wasn't a good thing, Evryone is more or less confounded as to why anyone needs the entire repo to be turned into .iso s and burned to disc. Especially since before you even download and burn it all new versions will almost certainly hit the repos.?
    It is Debian Stable. Except security fixes no new version will hit the repos.

  4. #34
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    Does some one know of there is a reason whey deb don't isntall packages bore all packages are downloaded? I get that some requres otheres and we have to wait for a sucessfull download of thows or risk fail, but while updating we would have multiple complete sets before also was downloaed and i don't see why it isn't installing thouse while downloading the rest?

  5. #35
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    Default There is no need to use even a fraction of that software; use what you need!

    The Debian project is a huge, international project, catering to numerous different needs and interests, and numerous hardware architectures. There is no possible way that people will use ALL of the software; in fact, one or two CD worth is probably more than enough. Even one full DVD is overkill. So whether a netinst, a single CD, a Live CD, USB media, or completely on-line mechanisms are used to install the software, to me, that is immaterial. Not only that, but if you use the Testing or Sid archives, one install will do it; just upgrade from there. But actually, even if you install a release version, I claim - with experience and with care - that you can actually, if you learn what to do and what has changed, you can successfully move from version to version without downloading a new installation image. You change systems when you change hardware, and that's about it. But that's for Debian veterans. Those who have to quibble about the little points can choose whatever method is most suitable for their preferences and interests.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by curaga View Post
    That dictionary has to be in RAM. So 64mb dictionary -> at least 64mb required to compress and decompress. Pray tell, how do you then install on a machine with 64mb ram, or even 128?
    Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_memory

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJenbo View Post
    Does some one know of there is a reason whey deb don't isntall packages bore all packages are downloaded? I get that some requres otheres and we have to wait for a sucessfull download of thows or risk fail, but while updating we would have multiple complete sets before also was downloaed and i don't see why it isn't installing thouse while downloading the rest?
    I'm sorry my friend, it really is not very clear at all what you are asking, but I'll try to restate your question, and if I guess your intention correctly, please confirm, and if not, try to restate your question again. (By the way, if English is not your native language, Google has some great translators that can do a pretty good job of translating from one language to another).

    Debian definitely does not want to install all possible packages. Since we've been talking about that consisting of 70-80 CDs or even close to a dozen FULL DVDs, installing everything is neither possible nor practical. That is not likely what you meant, so let me try again.

    When you install a single package using dpkg -i, that is all you install, a single .deb package (or however many .deb packages you include on a line. When you use apt-get, aptitude, synaptic, or some other higher level package management tool, nearly all of them have package dependency handling routines, which examine the required and recommended packages listed for each package, and decide which packages and libraries to install with them. Therefore, package managers, such as apt-get, aptitude, synaptic, or even update-manager, are capable of installing package groups, whereas the low level package tool, which is ultimately called to perform package installations, dpkg, installs exactly the packages given to it.

    This is quite analogous to the package handling in Red Hat and distributions using .rpm-based packages. The rpm utility does essentially the same task as the dpkg utility, it lists, installs, and removes software. Higher level, more recently developed tools, such as yum and graphical tools built on top of rpm and yum, can install groups of packages. It's the same way in Debian, dpkg behaves similar to rpm, and apt-get behaves similarly to yum.

    I hope that helps, but if not, please be patient and carefully restate your question.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by masinick View Post
    I'm sorry my friend, it really is not very clear at all what you are asking, but I'll try to restate your question, and if I guess your intention correctly, please confirm, and if not, try to restate your question again. (By the way, if English is not your native language, Google has some great translators that can do a pretty good job of translating from one language to another).

    Debian definitely does not want to install all possible packages. Since we've been talking about that consisting of 70-80 CDs or even close to a dozen FULL DVDs, installing everything is neither possible nor practical. That is not likely what you meant, so let me try again.

    When you install a single package using dpkg -i, that is all you install, a single .deb package (or however many .deb packages you include on a line. When you use apt-get, aptitude, synaptic, or some other higher level package management tool, nearly all of them have package dependency handling routines, which examine the required and recommended packages listed for each package, and decide which packages and libraries to install with them. Therefore, package managers, such as apt-get, aptitude, synaptic, or even update-manager, are capable of installing package groups, whereas the low level package tool, which is ultimately called to perform package installations, dpkg, installs exactly the packages given to it.

    This is quite analogous to the package handling in Red Hat and distributions using .rpm-based packages. The rpm utility does essentially the same task as the dpkg utility, it lists, installs, and removes software. Higher level, more recently developed tools, such as yum and graphical tools built on top of rpm and yum, can install groups of packages. It's the same way in Debian, dpkg behaves similar to rpm, and apt-get behaves similarly to yum.

    I hope that helps, but if not, please be patient and carefully restate your question.
    Thanks, I do consider my English skills quite a bit above what Google Translate is normally able to produce. Although my spelling is sub pare, but that is true for my native Danish as well. This also make using translator tools kind of hard, but maybe stating a technical question right after waking up from a nightmare wasn't the smartest choice either

    My question was that in the case of "apt-get install lynx gnome-desktop" why does the system wait with installing Lynx until gnome-desktop is fully downloaded. As fare as I am aware apt* is handling the downloading, so it should be able to issue an install for a package as soon as it and all of it's dependencies have downloaded, with out having to wait for the rest of the queued to download. This is especially true when updating, where a large number of packages that are not interdependent are being installed. Hope this clears it up.

  9. #39
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    Default Explaining Debian packaging mechanics at a high level

    That's much more clear; now I believe I understand your question. You're asking then, if multiple software packages are listed for installation, why does apt-get download all of them before installing?

    Assuming I have correctly interpreted your question this time, here is the answer: the current packaging system first requires that its package cache is updated (ie. apt-get update) and from there, it can determine from the package cache which packages need to be installed, and which dependent packages also need to be installed. The next step after that is to download all of the packages. Recent tools can parallelize some of that downloading; for instance, the recently announced Debian redirector mirror, located at http://http.debian.net/debian, can utilize multiple sites, concurrently downloading 2, 3, sometimes more packages simultaneously, so that helps out a LOT. But until all software is downloaded, the system as currently designed cannot procede. After that, the packages are expanded; a .deb package consists of a file list containing the target files, an archive that needs to be uncompressed and expanded, and that is the next step. Only after that is complete are packages ready to be set up, and that is the final phase of the package installation.

    Here is a recent example; I was installing the linux headers for an antiX Linux system, after just installing a matching kernel:

    Code:
    Get:1 http://www.daveserver.info/antiX/debs/ testing/main linux-headers-3.4.4-antix.1-486-smp i386 3.4.4-antix.1-486-smp-10.00.Custom [7,813 kB]
    Fetched 7,813 kB in 30s (259 kB/s)                                                                                                                           
    Selecting previously unselected package linux-headers-3.4.4-antix.1-486-smp.
    (Reading database ... 124727 files and directories currently installed.)
    Unpacking linux-headers-3.4.4-antix.1-486-smp (from .../linux-headers-3.4.4-antix.1-486-smp_3.4.4-antix.1-486-smp-10.00.Custom_i386.deb) ...
    Setting up linux-headers-3.4.4-antix.1-486-smp (3.4.4-antix.1-486-smp-10.00.Custom) ...
    By the way, the Debian mirrors HTTP redirector is explained at http://http.debian.net/; do give it a try!
    Last edited by masinick; 07-10-2012 at 10:12 PM. Reason: redirector info added

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by masinick View Post
    (By the way, if English is not your native language, Google has some great translators that can do a pretty good job of translating from one language to another).
    By the way just for fun I gave Google a chance at this

    Quote Originally Posted by Google
    Thank you, I'm watching my English skills as being a bit better than what google translate normally able to. Although my spelling is not quite stand for target practice, but it also applies to the first language is Danish. This also makes it a little difficult to use the translation tools, but maybe it was not the smartest to ask a technical question right after waking from a nightmare.

    My question is why the system in case of "apt-get install lynx gnome-desktop" wait to install Lynx to the gnome-desktop here has been downloaded. So far as I know are apt * for the download, so it should be able to start installing a package once it and all its dependencies have been retrieved without having to wait for the rest of the queue is retrieved. This is especially true for the update, where a large number of independent packages to be installed.
    I would say it did about as well as my first attempt, witch is not bad for a statistics based translation tool

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