So who are these douches that took down the nvnews site?

[asdx]

we've been over this in the other thread; there happens to be a difference between saying nouveau is garbage (which i didn't say) vs. nouveau is garbage compared to the nvidia blob (which is exactly what i said). asdx, you are being VERY dishonest and if you think i am not going to point out your deceit - you would be wrong.

Then please use another word, like "inferior with 3D performance" (which is to be expected from a fully RE'd driver), but using the word "garbage" is very harsh considering that nouveau is a project that is being created by individual people like us, without any documentation or support from Nvidia even.

You know nouveau is made from 100% RE'd code right? I don't know about you but I admire those developers, their work and talent on nouveau is more than impressive to me.

I think nouveau deserves huge respect and our support for their effort, even when the 3D performance might not be on par with the closed source driver (blob).

[ninez]

They are not, I am free to express my dissatisfaction with nvidia and so I will, if you don't like it, feel free to ignore it.

so your dissatisfaction with nvidia includes telling other users to go and die in fire? ~ while also telling almost everyone to fuck off at the end of every post??? weird. Typically, the way i would go about letting a company know that i am unhappy with their product would be to contact them directly and/or (in the case of computers) contact the OEM (in the case of a laptop or something).

And yes, my next card will be from Intel and AMD, I'm not giving my hard earned money to Nvidia, EVER again, because they don't support Linux the way I want to see them supporting it.

good for you, then don't buy nvidia. no one is forcing you to

And their excuses for not providing specifications are lame. What? Intel and AMD are not losing money by supporting Linux and open source.

Please just go away nvidia. You have failed the entire Linux community.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYWzMvlj2RQ

they may not provide specs - but their driver is still the best GFX driver for linux, it slaughters Intel and i've always found AMD to be a mixed bag. ...and by the way - you do realize the vast majority of phoronix readers have already seen that video right?

and who are you to claim they have failed the entire linux community - they happen to be the only GFX manufacturer that HASN'T disappointed me. please, stop speaking for others - you are NOT representative of all Linux users, not even close...

[asdx]

so your dissatisfaction with nvidia includes telling other users to go and die in fire? ~ while also telling almost everyone to fuck off at the end of every post??? weird. Typically, the way i would go about letting a company know that i am unhappy with their product would be to contact them directly and/or (in the case of computers) contact the OEM (in the case of a laptop or something).

I apologize for that, but if I've insulted others it was because they insulted others and me also. Like that guy saying "Wayland should die in a fire", I've just repeated what he said.

good for you, then don't buy nvidia. no one is forcing you to

Ok. I will consider buying another Nvidia card the day they recognize and support nouveau.

they may not provide specs - but their driver is still the best GFX driver for linux, it slaughters Intel and i've always found AMD to be a mixed bag. ...and by the way - you do realize the vast majority of phoronix readers have already seen that video right?

and who are you to claim they have failed the entire linux community - they happen to be the only GFX manufacturer that HASN'T disappointed me. please, stop speaking for others - you are NOT representative of all Linux users, not even close...

Sure, the blob is very good for 3D acceleration, and I'm glad that you are happy with it, but not everyone is happy with them (me included), and Linus is one of them. I might not be a representative for all Linux users and neither I want to be, sorry if you interpreted things that way. What I know is that my opinion counts, and I'm free to express it publicly if so I desire.

But what about Linus, he is a representative for the Linux community also, isn't he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpOyKCNZYw

[ninez]

Then please use another word, like "inferior with 3D performance" (which is to be expected from a fully RE'd driver), but using the word "garbage" is very harsh considering that nouveau is a project that is being created by individual people like us, without any documentation or support from Nvidia even.

in comparison it is junk, it doesn't support even half of what the blob offers and for many things is unusable... you may find that harsh but oh well. I wouldn't expect a couple of developers to be able to create a better driver than nvidia, even if they had the spec/documentation. as someone else already pointed out - that sure hasn't made a huge difference for radeon, either.

You know nouveau is made from 100% RE'd code right? I don't know about you but I admire those developers, their work and talent on nouveau is more than impressive to me.

I think nouveau deserves huge respect and our support for their effort, even when the 3D performance might not be on par with the closed source driver (blob).

I admire them for their skills and talent, but that doesn't mean i have to prefer/use Nouveau over the Nvidia driver, especially when it is a very poor driver even when comparing it to radeon/intel OSS drivers. When i purchased Nvidia hardware, i knew what i was buying and that i wasn't buying these cards to use Nouveau - that would be a waste of my hard earned money :\ I've done all that i can to support their efforts, but at the end of the day - i am not sacrificing my computing experience (and requirements) to support their efforts. to say 3d performance 'might not be on par' is a HUGE understatement.

...and where exactly does 'respect' entail going on tangents in the phoronix forums telling any and all nvidia (blob) users to fuck off or kill themselves, exactly? where does this respect tell you to be a rude twat towards a Linux nvidia developer whom was trying to let linux nvidia users in the phoronix forums about some changes that are happening???

all you are doing is being disruptive and an asshole.

[asdx]

in comparison it is junk, it doesn't support even half of what the blob offers and for many things is unusable... you may find that harsh but oh well. I wouldn't expect a couple of developers to be able to create a better driver than nvidia, even if they had the spec/documentation. as someone else already pointed out - that sure hasn't made a huge difference for radeon, either.

I see you won't give up with the insults. Ok, how about this? Nouveau performs a lot better with compositors than your blob. All nouveau needs to catch up is better performance with 3D and power management.

Let's not talk about junk because nouveau isn't, nouveau fits a lot better into the kernel, it uses existing Linux components: Gallium3D, KMS, GEM, etc. That's why it can work so well with Wayland or X. It uses the existing Linux code and it's modular, unlike the blob.

The blob is actually the junk here, it uses only X and taints the Linux kernel, it also has a lot of Windows code inside of it, perhaps that's why it's so slow with compositors and 2D.

I admire them for their skills and talent, but that doesn't mean i have to prefer/use Nouveau over the Nvidia driver, especially when it is a very poor driver even when comparing it to radeon/intel OSS drivers. When i purchased Nvidia hardware, i knew what i was buying and that i wasn't buying these cards to use Nouveau - that would be a waste of my hard earned money :\ I've done all that i can to support their efforts, but at the end of the day - i am not sacrificing my computing experience (and requirements) to support their efforts. to say 3d performance 'might not be on par' is a HUGE understatement.

Fine, but I still think you are judging nouveau for the wrong reasons, nouveau is not poor, far from it.

...and where exactly does 'respect' entail going on tangents in the phoronix forums telling any and all nvidia (blob) users to fuck off or kill themselves, exactly? where does this respect tell you to be a rude twat towards a Linux nvidia developer whom was trying to let linux nvidia users in the phoronix forums about some changes that are happening???

I've already apologized for all that, and again, if I've insulted others, it was because they insulted me first for expressing my ideas on the matter, and because they insulted others also, so respect others to be respected.

all you are doing is being disruptive and an asshole.

So are you.

[ninez]

I see you won't give up with the insults. Ok, how about this? Nouveau performs a lot better with compositors than your blob. All nouveau needs to catch up is better performance with 3D and power management.

Nouveau doesn't perform better on any of my machines with compositors, here is something fun for you to try - run compiz (kwin or GS) with all of the bells and whistles (this would mostly apply to kwin and compiz), launch a few instances of GL-type apps, videos, hardware accelerated VMs, maybe a few compilations and start moving around all of these windows - we'll see just how much 'smoother' nouveau is. lol. it doesn't cut it. So if you are saying, Nouveau is smoother with compositors, right up until you are actually using real-world usage, ie: running applications - than what does it matter? i don't sit in front of any of my machines to ooo and awww over compositors, I use applications, sometimes i have 8 busy workspaces, with many running applications and VMs.

Let's not talk about junk because nouveau isn't, nouveau fits a lot better into the kernel, it uses existing Linux components: Gallium3D, KMS, GEM, etc. That's why it can work so well with Wayland or X. It uses the existing Linux code and it's modular, unlike the blob.

The blob is actually the junk here, it uses only X and taints the Linux kernel, it also has a lot of Windows code inside of it, perhaps that's why it's so slow with compositors and 2D.

you still don't get it. I....AM....NOT...SAYING....NOUVEAU...IS....JUNK. it is only junk in *comparison* to the blob. it is inferior. I agree nouveau fits better into the kernel - do you not remember me saying i thought nvidia should utilize nouveau for in-kernel, like a dev suggested. But all of the rest that you mention are fine and dandy, except for one detail the binary driver shreds all of the drivers using those interfaces, substantially - it is performant, supports OpenGL4.x, CUDA/OpenCL, etc. but regardless of all of this - for those who require being able to utilize the GPU and use it how it was designed - Nouveau will not under any circumstance, deliver - so it doesn't matter at this point how integrated or modular Nouveau is - and this goes back to some of my earlier posts about being pragmatic and realistic about this stuff.

Fine, but I still think you are judging nouveau for the wrong reasons, nouveau is not poor, far from it.

You can think whatever you like. Nouveau doesn't cut it on my desktop, is missing a lot of features and while i think for some people it would work fine (people who don't require much GFX), it does not for people who actually use the GPUs - whether that is 3d/heavy GL apps or GPU computing...

I've already apologized for all that, and again, if I've insulted others, it was because they insulted me first for expressing my ideas on the matter, and because they insulted others also, so respect others to be respected.

sounds like an excuse to me.

So are you.

More correctly, I am a dick (and can screw assholes; Team america reference..lol). ie: aside from general topics being discussed, i only really start digging into someone when i have watched them be disrespectful/asshole repeatedly and eventually get sick of listening/seeing their crap.

As for being disruptive; While I do think this conversation has gone on too long and is disruptive ~ if it gets you to stop being harsh towards others and maybe think a little before you speak / rather than just getting you banned - than it wasn't a waste of time and thus maybe not that bad of a disruption if it improves things.

the fact, you have already apologized several times for your actions tells me, it's not all in vein.

[asdx]

Nouveau doesn't perform better on any of my machines with compositors, here is something fun for you to try - run compiz (kwin or GS) with all of the bells and whistles (this would mostly apply to kwin and compiz), launch a few instances of GL-type apps, videos, hardware accelerated VMs, maybe a few compilations and start moving around all of these windows - we'll see just how much 'smoother' nouveau is. lol. it doesn't cut it. So if you are saying, Nouveau is smoother with compositors, right up until you are actually using real-world usage, ie: running applications - than what does it matter? i don't sit in front of any of my machines to ooo and awww over compositors, I use applications, sometimes i have 8 busy workspaces, with many running applications and VMs.

I do all that every day with nouveau, it works just fine, and I don't experience any slow downs. I run archlinux x86_64 and I use KDE 4.8.4 with kwin (desktop effects are enabled), I watch movies in 720p and 1080p without any problems (VLC and mplayer), I run VMs, I build/compile stuff, etc. Sometimes I play Xonotic, Doom 3, etc. I resume/suspend/hibernate my computer just fine. Again, zero problems.

you still don't get it. I....AM....NOT...SAYING....NOUVEAU...IS....JUNK. it is only junk in *comparison* to the blob. it is inferior. I agree nouveau fits better into the kernel - do you not remember me saying i thought nvidia should utilize nouveau for in-kernel, like a dev suggested. But all of the rest that you mention are fine and dandy, except for one detail the binary driver shreds all of the drivers using those interfaces, substantially - it is performant, supports OpenGL4.x, CUDA/OpenCL, etc. but regardless of all of this - for those who require being able to utilize the GPU and use it how it was designed - Nouveau will not under any circumstance, deliver - so it doesn't matter at this point how integrated or modular Nouveau is - and this goes back to some of my earlier posts about being pragmatic and realistic about this stuff.

I don't think it's "junk" compared to the blob, I agree that it could be better with things like 3D acceleration, but I think nouveau is better than the blob in other areas, KMS for example, or the fact that it's deeply integrated with the kernel, and so on. So let's just agree to disagree with the things we disagree with.

You can think whatever you like. Nouveau doesn't cut it on my desktop, is missing a lot of features and while i think for some people it would work fine (people who don't require much GFX), it does not for people who actually use the GPUs - whether that is 3d/heavy GL apps or GPU computing...

Yeah that's fair, if the blob is better for you, that's great.

sounds like an excuse to me.

Not really an excuse. I apologize if I called people "hypocrite", I don't think you guys are that, and I'm sure that if nouveau had better support for the things you like to do (i.e. 3D, power management, etc) you'll probably be using it. Hopefully it'll get there one day. I retract from what I've said.

I'm just frustrated that nvidia won't help nouveau and I wish the open source drivers were as fast as the blob for 3D, so users could have a better "out of the box" experience when trying out Linux, etc.

I'm also frustrated over the patent fiasco in Mesa and S3TC.

It's also quite frustrating to read comments of users saying "Wayland should DIAF" when Wayland is just trying to remove the X cruft, which is nothing bad IMHO.

I wish we would embrace progress more openly, that's all.

More correctly, I am a dick (and can screw assholes; Team america reference..lol). ie: aside from general topics being discussed, i only really start digging into someone when i have watched them be disrespectful/asshole repeatedly and eventually get sick of listening/seeing their crap.

As for being disruptive; While I do think this conversation has gone on too long and is disruptive ~ if it gets you to stop being harsh towards others and maybe think a little before you speak / rather than just getting you banned - than it wasn't a waste of time and thus maybe not that bad of a disruption if it improves things.

the fact, you have already apologized several times for your actions tells me, it's not all in vein.

Yeah I also prefer having a civil conversation, there's no point in being rude.

Peace out.

[ninez]

I do all that every day with nouveau, it works just fine, and I don't experience any slow downs. I run archlinux x86_64 and I use KDE 4.8.4 with kwin (desktop effects are enabled), I watch movies in 720p and 1080p without any problems (VLC and mplayer), I run VMs, I build/compile stuff, etc. Sometimes I play Xonotic, Doom 3, etc. I resume/suspend/hibernate my computer just fine. Again, zero problems.

Are your VMs H/W accelerated? are your videos for that matter? ..and you obviously can't really take advantage of things like OpenCL/CUDA, either. Do you have a multiple monitor setup (i have 3), how well does it work while doing all of this stuff?

I don't think it's "junk" compared to the blob, I agree that it could be better with things like 3D acceleration, but I think nouveau is better than the blob in other areas, KMS for example, or the fact that it's deeply integrated with the kernel, and so on. So let's just agree to disagree with the things we disagree with.

I'll agree to disagree. plus, i've already sort of covered this in that other thread. and again, i don't dispute certain advantages Nouveau may have - it really comes down to the more fundemental things it is missing, that i think are problematic - some of which you list below;

Not really an excuse. I apologize if I called people "hypocrite", I don't think you guys are that, and I'm sure that if nouveau had better support for the things you like to do (i.e. 3D, power management, etc) you'll probably be using it. Hopefully it'll get there one day. I retract from what I've said.

I'm just frustrated that nvidia won't help nouveau and I wish the open source drivers were as fast as the blob for 3D, so users could have a better "out of the box" experience when trying out Linux, etc.

I'm also frustrated over the patent fiasco in Mesa and S3TC.

these are issues i don't experience with nvidia at all. it rocks, and i am almost always running the beta drivers (patched for RT, as well).

It's also quite frustrating to read comments of users saying "Wayland should DIAF" when Wayland is just trying to remove the X cruft, which is nothing bad IMHO.

I wish we would embrace progress more openly, that's all.

Well, i am actually looking forward to Wayland, i don't know why people would have issue with it. But i also like Xorg (even with some of it's issues, it is very powerful/useful).

cheerz

[Licaon]

@ninez: do not feed...

@asdx: keep it going dude

Hello,

We're very sorry for the inconvenience that this is causing. We're currently working on putting up our own UNIX support forums and retrieving the data from the now-disabled NvNews UNIX forums. As you know, we're also currently having forum issues of our own so the timing is a little unfortunate, but we hope to be able to provide a new set of official support forums soon.

In the meantime and until this is resolved, please send your feedback and bug reports to linux-bugs@nvidia.com. I will update this topic as soon as there is news.

Again, sorry for the inconvenience. We really value your participation and I hope to see you on the new forums as soon as they're up.

Thanks,
- Pierre-Loup Griffais
NVIDIA Linux Graphics

10q for answering my PM, glad you are at least doing the right thing now by having a proper nVidia owned forum.

[xvalentinex]

Well, i am actually looking forward to Wayland, i don't know why people would have issue with it. But i also like Xorg (even with some of it's issues, it is very powerful/useful).

This is the problem with your entire argument and proof you don't really understand the issues at hand.

Wayland requires KMS. If nvidia's support for KMS is anything like their support of xrandr12, good luck getting it in the next decade.

Wayland can never be the default in major distributions until nvidia cards are supported, and it will be Nouveau that supports it first. It would be really nice if nvidia would coroporate with Nouveau so that linux can have excellent open source drivers for nvidia cards, but unfortunately that's not the case. If I were you, I'd stop patting Nvidia on the back, and get on the Nouveau train. At some point Wayland will probably be the default and you'll be stuck with X, or Nouveau drivers that aren't as good as they could have been.