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Thread: Binary Driver Blobs Aren't Yet Ready For Wayland

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by timofonic View Post
    You talk like the typical GPU/SoC maker moron

    What's Nouveau then? And without resources form Novidia
    I don't know of too many successful Linux-based consumer products that ship free of binary drivers. Can you list them for me?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    I hope they stop working, blame yourself for getting shitty nvidia.
    All it will do is push more people away from Linux, which I believe is your goal anyway.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by timofonic View Post
    What's Nouveau then? And without resources form Novidia
    Nouveau's exiestence has been entirely dependent on the existence of Nvidia's blob in the first place. After all, nouveau is largely just reverse-engineered - and while i personally do not use Nouveau (because it is garbage compared to the blob). You may remember (?) a tool called 'REnouveau' - a tool written by nouveau developers to help them reverse engineer the blob. Nouveau has been very dependent on Nvidia's driver, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future (like every time Nvidia releases new hardware).

    Quote Originally Posted by timofonic View Post
    Fuck you nvidia!
    Fuck you, binary driver blobs!

    Binary driver blobs should have never been possible on Linux, they are a cancer to the FOSS community.

    Why care about them when they MUST me destroyed FOREVER?
    You do realize there are industries where linux dominates (such as the movie industry), never would have even been possible without Nvidia/AMD providing very performant / up-to-spec (openGL) drivers, right? How about HPC? without having drivers to power/utilize the GPU linux' usage in HPC and workstation-class machines would have been a no-go :\ For the server market it largely doesn't matter (or has little impact) but for those industries outside of that, the binary drivers helped with Linux adoption in a big way. So i 100% disagree that they shouldn't have been allowed in the first place, because if they had not - the OSS drivers probably would have never been written, and linux wouldn't have the widespread adoption that is currently has.

    that being said, obviously blobs are a serious problem, in particular - when it comes to development, debugging, etc. But to claim they all should be destroyed when the OSS drivers are NOT a good replacement - because in general, they aren't performant and are missing many features, right down to basic stuff like proper power-management :\ I won't even consider using Wayland on a day to day basis, even if a couple distro's adopt it until Nvidia supports it. - there is absolutely no point. Nouveau isn't an (good) alternative, going and buying a modern AMD GPU - to use radeon, while much better than nouveau as a choice - is still quite laughable compared to the blobs. Intel may not be the worst choice, but i am not going out and buying a new Intel CPU - just to run sub-standard GFX. ~ what a joke.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veerappan View Post
    I've got two reasons:

    1) My work machine has dual 1080p monitors attached to a Radeon 5450 in Ubuntu x64 (currently 12.04, previously 11.10). Using Catalyst/fglrx, I could never get X to recognize the second monitor correctly. I switched to the OSS radeon driver and immediately the second monitor became usable.

    2) I hate Unity, but my work machine had Ubuntu installed by the IT people at my request (I was using it at home at the time I was hired... I've since switched to Mint at home). I knew that Gnome Shell worked for me, and so I figured I'd switch to that as my window manager. Catalyst always gave me corruption/stability issues in GS (maybe they've fixed that by now, but they sure are/were taking their time). The Radeon driver works without corruption, and is rock solid for stability.
    1) True fglrx is quite a mess there, but for me it worked after 2 reboots playing with amdcccle. My HDMI full HD second monitor just works with it.

    2) I use KDE and fglrx just works with it

    And be aware you are talking about bad issue, but not as critical as missing powersave from the radeon driver in my opinion. I have literally burned a laptop (not a fault of radeon that time to be clear), so I'm very critical about powersave.

    I agree fglrx is not the best solution, of course it is not! Damn the intel driver is a paradise compared to it. I sold every AMD/NVIDIA machine I had to switch to intel. But still fglrx, even it is an half pile of bugged crap, is usefull to someone. Burning it is not a good solution.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by tstrunk View Post
    My experiences were different; that was also why I was happy the developers shared my view. I followed the development of the 'first' new ATI driver with my 4850. There I always experienced Video tearing and subpar compiz performance with the fglrx. The open-source driver fixed all that instantly. I then switched to a 6850. Again on fglrx I am currently experiencing tearing and have problems with Gnome 3 and dual monitor support. I am still on fglrx because HDMI audio doesn't work on the open source driver. This will be fixed in Kernel 3.5. Then I will switch again.

    I suppose it's just different experience. I'd really just like Wayland to be as optimal as possible without bending to the closed source drivers.
    That's the point, the expirience! For me fglrx worked and so it does for half of the AMD customers. Phoronix surveys show this. Half AMD users use fglrx. This means fglrx is usefull as it was for my expirience. So burning it just hurt Linux users. A better radeon driver is the right solution, if AMD want to lean something from intel they are welcome to do so, but anyway until a complete open source alternative is available, burning fglrx is not a good reason just becouse it is not good for everyone.

  6. #26
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    Default Nouveau is cool

    I've been using nvidia blob on my ubuntu 12.04 until last month, the desktop experience was horrible, with nvidia blob you always feel some hiccups in rendering, nothing feels smooth wehther it's on desktop or in a game. Ever since I switched to Nouveau driver, everything started to look better and smoother, in fact Compiz plays much much better with Nouveau and also some games run smoother (not necessarily with higher FPS). This is the major reason that I like Nouveau driver better.

    It's unlikely to see Nvidia open source thier driver but if they could provide nouveaue developers with some documentation, then you would see how fast Nouveau becomes the best choice for everyone.

    I know that using Nouveau driver stops me from playing some modern games and the OpenGL support is at version 3.0 but now that I enjoyed it I can't simply switch back to Nvidia blob.
    Last edited by sepisoad; 07-25-2012 at 01:37 PM.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by sepisoad View Post
    I've been using nvidia blob on my ubuntu 12.04 until last month, the desktop experience was horrible, with nvidia blob you always fill this hiccup on rendering, nothing feels smooth wehther it's on desktop or in a game. Ever since I switched to Nouveau driver, everything started to look better and smoother, in fact Compiz plays much much better with Nouveau and also some games run smoother (not necessarily with higher FPS). This is the major reason that I like Nouveau driver better.
    This is, unfortunately, very true. But the problem isn't in the driver, it's the software. Devs took the asdx route and didn't engage the binary drivers at all. The end result is an awful experience with users running away from the OS with their hands in the air.

    It's evident that devs just plain didn't test this stuff at all before releasing it (in an LTS of all things).

    Seriously... no non-tech geek is going to tolerate this BS.

    It's unlikely to see Nvidia open source thier driver but if they could provide nouveaue developers with some documentation, then you would see how fast Nouveau becomes the best choice for everyone.
    By the looks of Radeon, I would say probably not.

  8. #28
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    And I already see how Wayland is going to go:

    "We didn't bother to even consider the existence of binary drivers."

    And sure enough, absolutely nothing will work outside of FOSS-land. People will be forced to engage in all kinds of Wayland-on-X hackery to get basic functionality and the masses will avoid Linux like the plague... And where does that put companies like Valve? Questioning their priorities and commitments, probably.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tstrunk View Post
    From the article:
    "Please don't make it easy for "the blob to work with Wayland/Weston", and don't change anything in our stacks for that to happen. Please don't sacrifice anything in our side.
    Let Nvidia adapt to Wayland/Weston and not the other way around. And if they won't, I think people will be more than happy to be on Nouveau."
    A long, long time ago I was looking at a Wirth-type programming language called "Oberon2". I wanted to try it out, but anything "real" that I might have wanted to do with it involved using legacy data, usually binary legacy data. That hadn't stopped me even in the past with Pascal or Modula2, because either the languages or the common extensions had the necessary mapping capability. I've both read and written various types of legacy binary data in both languages.

    I didn't see the necessary capabilities in Oberon2, and at the time it hadn't been around long enough to acquire extensions. So on-list I asked about how to handle this situation. Their answer, "Get your applications re-coded in Oberon2, so that the data will be native and you won't have a legacy binary data problem any more." It's obvious that I had the power, on my own, to convert a F10 company to a pet programming language I wanted to investigate, as well as move all of their legacy data. It's equally obvious that Oberon2 has overtaken the programming profession completely, crowding out every other language. What a suggestion, what a plan!

    Wayland is in a bit of a better situation here, since it is much more mainstream than Oberon2. But as good as Wayland may be I would be careful about adopting "my way or the highway" approaches toward industry-dominant parties.

    If it were me, I would seriously consider the shim. I would not compromise OSS driver performance for the shim, nor the cleanliness of the server codebase. In fact, if difficulties forced the shim to be a little slower, that might well be a good thing, because I would also publish a plan for removing it, "in the name of native performance."

    Incidentally, I use Linux for my day job. It's what the company has installed on our workstations - we're talking thousands of installations across the company. There are fabois moments, and then there's time to go to work. I welcome the idea of the simplicity and improvements Wayland can bring me - once it's capable of doing what I need it to do. (That includes networked graphics on a regular basis, but I know that the Wayland developers understand that, unlike the Wayland fanbois.) At home I'll probably use sooner than that.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Your comment, the blob and you are the only garbages.

    Fuck you.
    ...and your what 12 years old? :\

    I love how you just quoted part of the first bit without actually addressing what i was pointing out - which was entirely true...

    i also like how divisive and ignorant you are, it's hilarious

    you're such a little puke, asdx - your zealotry, fanaticism, stupidity and immaturity really shine with comments like this. They wonderfully showcase how misguided, unintellectual you are and also how much of a troll you are.

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