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Thread: Binary Driver Blobs Aren't Yet Ready For Wayland

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    That's not my goal.

    My goal is that we get rid of the nvidia blob and all blobs.

    Blobs hinder development, why is that so hard to understand?
    1st. why do you even have that goal, when in reality all you are doing is bitching in forums? Unless you are actively working on the OSS GFX stack or are doing something else constructive that is an actual contribution, then all you are doing is bitching and making noise to the wrong people... and lets be honest asdx - most of what you do in these forums is troll and are generally very unpleasent.

    I'm also not convinced that the comment you are responding to had any stance against OSS drivers. I assume that he was being pragmatic like most of us who are using the blobs (but test both), blobs are annoying - but in reality, until the OSS drivers can provide the same performance + feature set - they are a very hard sell and that doesn't even address the fact that some users REQUIRE the blobs, since the OSS drivers can't deliver in many cases.

    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Blobs stop developers from being free to make decisions and move development forward. This is bad when we have a system such as X11 that carries a lot of garbage, it's bad for you, developers and everyone.

    We need specifications and we need to focus in making the free drivers better. This is my only goal. We need to demand specifications from hardware vendors.

    Imagine if we had a free and open system but 90% of our drivers were blobs, can you imagine how bad this would be?

    Please don't support blobs, please demand hardware specs from your vendors. Support the vendors that support us, and not those who are against us.
    I agree blobs can hinder developmental choices, but i don't see how you then can draw some parallel to xorg's cruft, which has little to do with that specifically. I feel that Xorg is tied to the technology and features-sets it provides, it also has a lot of legacy-type code, it is an entirely different beast than Wayland. The blobs will also not stop Wayland from being adopted, either. The vendors (like AMD/Nvidia) will most likely adapt their drivers when there is reason to, this isn't unlike other platform vendors, which will usually release new drivers as new versions of MacOSX and Windows start to be in use.

    as for specs, it would be great if all companies would do that. but i wouldn't hold my breathe having the expectation that all companies will do it. Some will, some won't. - Nvidia being one unlikely to do so (and may even have good reason not to do so, not that i am claiming that is the case). I personally liked the one developer's idea of using nouveau in the kernel / talk to GPU and have nvidia move the rest (of their components) outside, while adapting it all to work with nouveau. It would solve all of the kernel GPL issues and seems like a decent compromise - it would probably even help nouveau's development, as well.
    Last edited by ninez; 07-25-2012 at 02:25 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    That's not my goal.

    My goal is that we get rid of the nvidia blob and all blobs.

    Blobs hinder development, why is that so hard to understand?
    Your view is based on a falsehood. Binary blobs helped drive Android to be the #1 smartphone OS in the world.

    By your logic Android should be sniveling around the bottom of the barrel since it's loaded up with blobs.

  3. #33
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    I sure hope it solves all X problems related to the old one:
    http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux...p.current.html

    Would like to be able to minimize and move window of unresponsive applications easily (while they are unresponsive).

    That said.
    It would be really practical to get a working replacement for X.Org Server with a STABLE API!!!

  4. #34
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    When I see the amd open drivers putting $500+ cards to good use, then I can complain that nvidia needs to open up too. Until then...

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Right, I'm so misguided for not supporting your gaming activities and the blob, sigh. Who is the immature now?
    I don't play video games, at all :\ I'm not sure where you got that impression, i've said nothing of the sort. You misguided for not understanding that the OSS drivers can't deliver in many areas, and not seeing that the blobs have their uses and deliver in some markets where the OSS drivers have no hope of doing so, probably for the foreseeable future. furthermore, i don't need your fucking approval or support to determine what i can and can't do on my hardware/system. - Who the fuck do you think you are?!! really? "who is the immature one now"?? - obviously, you are STILL an immature little child, and your comment above doesn't change that - in fact, it supports it :\

    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Even Linus Torvalds agrees that the nvidia blob is a piece of absolute shit.
    Plea to authority? Linus has good reason to not like working with Nvidia- they make development a pain in the ass - which i totally agree with, nvidia needs to take a hard look at how they operate, but when Linus says that it's absolute shit - he is not saying the OSS drivers are of a higher caliber, or that they are performant drivers or even that htey are a good replacement. he is talking about development.

    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Everyone but you and the other idiot (johnc) agrees that when NOT using the blob and when using the open source drivers (nouveau, intel, radeon), the desktop feels so much better, smooth and responsive.

    Blobs need to die, plain and simple. They are the cause of all problems we have.
    Did i say they didn't - NO, i did not. I discussed pragmatism, and the reality of the situation, which you are so incredibly obtuse - that apparently that went right over your head. (why am i not surprised!) I have yet to see everyone in this forum turn around and agree with everything you say, asdx - in fact, a lot of the time people (in various threads) refer to you as a troll. Furthermore, there are many problems within FOSS, they aren't all caused by blobs, specifically - sorry but no dice.


    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    And it's not zealotry, it's simply pointing out the obvious.
    it IS fanaticism and zealotry. Your not 'pointing out the obvious' - your being childish, divisive, extreme, inflamatory and generally you're just an asshole (just like in every other post you have in these forums).
    Last edited by ninez; 07-25-2012 at 02:52 PM.

  6. #36
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    This has the potential to be more disruptive than the transition to PulseAudio, except without the nominal features that PA brought..
    Yes half a decade of broken audio and counting.

    Phoronix surveys show this. Half AMD users use fglrx.
    I would be very sceptical about extrapolating a poll on this site to the community at large.

    As for NVidia I seem to remember reading an article by some one high up over there that said NVidia would never support Wayland because it isn't used by BSD, Solaris etc.

    As for Wayland it's self. I would put it like this. I would rather have the devs working on getting Wayland out rather than working on propping up the broken blob industry. Until Wayland has some thing usable shipping in a distro very few people are going to care. If you want people to support Wayland you have to get it in front of them and let them see what it can do. After that the question of whether to support the blobs becomes a question of how crippled does Wayland have to become to do that. If they can just put a stub in and leave all the gore in a separate package then it isn't so bad. If it means tripling the amount of code, killing the performance and losing a year of development then that is an entirely different beast. Only the devs can answer how that would look.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    I bet Android would have been just as successful if it used Intel open-source graphics.
    How many Intel phones are being sold?

    The problem with blobs is when they get in the way of developers, or when they cause issues for desktop usage (animations slowing down, poor 2D support, etc), etc.
    Is there a lack of software on platforms that use blobs? E.g., Windows, OS X or Android?

    That's why I am against blobs, not entirely for philosophical reasons, but I strongly believe that we'll be much better off by having an entirely better open-source integrated platform. We actually have that now with open-source drivers.
    But the facts show that actually the opposite of what you believe is true. The most successful consumer-oriented products are not fully open source.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    But fine, keep supporting nvidia and their blob until they last. We'll be ignoring you and supporting wayland/nouveau and moving Linux development forward.
    Who is "we"? You and those other "NVIDIA MUST DIE" zealots?

    Have fun with Wayland. I don't see it going anywhere until it supports the binary blobs in some way. Simply because those customer's who do spend a lot of money on Linux by buying support contracts usually need proper GL or GPU Computing support.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    No, the people who want to see Linux progress on the desktop, the people who are fed up with X and with the problems that the blob brings to the desktop and to their developers. The people who aren't scared of change, so the entire Linux and free software community.
    You really don't get it, do you? You are talking about "moving Linux forward" but you don't see who is paying the bill. Linux can move forward because lots of the Linux developers get PAID. Those developers can get paid because there are actually customers who do buy support contracts. If such a customer needs proper GL support or GPU computing on Linux he will buy an Nvidia card (because the Catalyst driver sucks compared to Nvidia) and he will choose a distribution which offers proper support for that card.

    To sum it up:
    1) Linux can only move forward (that fast) because somebody pays for the development work.
    2) Those who pay, want proper support for their hardware.
    3) By trying to ban all binary blobs you force those paying customers to move to another OS.
    4) End Result: Less developers can be paid because the distributors make less money.


    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Wayland is going to get mainstream with or without the blob.
    I doubt it, but we will see about that.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    I'm not trying to convince you to anything, I'm simply trying to point out that nvidia is a PAIN IN THE ASS for developers and everyone, I'm simply trying to point out that we should be more understanding and help the developers instead of being against them and being so selfish with the blob/gaming/whatever. After all, they are the people who are writing the software we all use/love in the first place.
    You don't need to constantly point this shit out in the forums and jump down anyone's throat who is using the blob. I use the blob because software i use at both home and work is almost unusable with nouveau. again, some people 'require' the blob. Secondly, i work with developers all of the time, and there are much more constructive things to do then telling everyone to go fuck themselves. How about this asdx, actually contribute to a project (if your not doing so already). I've contributed to Nouveau - through using RENouveau a couple of years ago, on some new Nvidia hardware and have contributed to various other projects, and will continue to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Do whatever you want with your hardware, that's none of my business. I'm not trying to tell you how you should use your hardware, I'm simply trying to point out that we should be more understanding with developers.
    you're damn right it's none of your business, and no you weren't simply pointing anything out. You insisted i am 'selfish' and 'against developers' for using the blob, and then treating myself and others whom have a more pragmatic / realistic approach, like we are murders or some shit. You're a fucking IDIOT! - and really you should do us all a favor and shut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    What if one day the developers give up with what they are doing because we as users don't give a shit? Are we going to go back to Windows?

    Please think about it. This is all I'm asking for.
    telling people to fuck off (as far as i know) is no way to ask anyone for anything. Secondly, Linux isn't going anywhere and supposing very unrealistic theories has little to do with reality. 3rd - aside from sometimes using windows at Work (sometimes) i haven't run Windows in over 10years on a single machine of my mine. You may have just migrated recently to Linux, but some of us have been using it for years and years - so there is no 'going back to windows'. you are so juvenile.

    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Sure, and you are not helping with their development if you support the blob.

    It's not fanaticism and zealotry, I simply understand the developers pain in this case because I'm also a developer (not a Linux kernel developer), and I know what a pain is to have to deal with unsupportive people. As a user, I also prefer the advantages that nouveau has over the blob KMS, Wayland, better integration with the system, etc.
    Go back and read all of your posts from various threads over the last couple of weeks, then look at other user's replies - you are TOTALLY fanatical and a zealot.

    Unsupportive -> Wrong. I've actually run RENouveau on hardware that at the time wasn't yet fully supported by Nouveau. I also contribute to Compiz whenever i can, via bug reporting with even the occasional suggested fix ~ several which made it into 0.9.7 - 0.9.8+. I also tend to help anyone in the Archlinux (my distro of choice) when they run into issues with compiz (including on 2 occasions notifying an Arch compiz-packager about a fix and how to apply it - before it was merged into compiz-bzr.. using the blob didn't seem to stop me from doing any of that. I've also reported RT related bugs directly to Nvidia - to make them aware of an issue their drivers had with RT-kernel developer changes - which was fixed in 302.xx nvidia driver - which was great because i didn't have to hassle the RT-devs at all to accomplish it.

    as a user you can prefer nouveau, that is fine. But you can go fuck yourself when you start supposing others are 'against developers' just because they have VALID reasons, or dare i say LITTLE CHOICE but to use the blob. Stop evangelizing and being an ignorant little shite.

    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    But fine, keep supporting nvidia and their blob until they last. We'll be ignoring you and supporting wayland/nouveau and moving Linux development forward.
    If Nvidia didn't make the best linux driver, i would be using something else - and asdx - you don't want to see Nvidia abandon linux (not that that is going to happen), that would be nothing but a big loss for end-users. where is this 'we' coming from ~ do you contribute to Wayland??? how about Nouveau?!? - if your answer is no, then shut it. :\

    and again, Nvidia will support Wayland when they see reason to, this isn't unlike most vendors on other platforms. MS releases Vista - vendors write new drivers. MS releases win7 - they do it again... i mean come on, WTF are you even going on about?
    Last edited by ninez; 07-25-2012 at 03:49 PM.

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