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Thread: Open-Source Doom 3 Running On Wayland

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by chmmr View Post
    Representing Ubuntu, he was actually one of the first of all distros to express an explicit support for Wayland. He wrote the following in November 2010:
    http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551

    The next major transition for Unity will be to deliver it on Wayland, the OpenGL-based display management system. Wed like to embrace Wayland early, as much of the work were doing on uTouch and other input systems will be relevant for Wayland and its an area we can make a useful contribution to the project.

    Were confident well be able to retain the ability to run X applications in a compatibility mode, so this is not a transition that needs to reset the world of desktop free software. Nor is it a transition everyone needs to make at the same time: for the same reason well keep investing in the 2D experience on Ubuntu despite also believing that Unity, with all its GL dependencies, is the best interface for the desktop. Well help GNOME and KDE with the transition, theres no reason for them not to be there on day one either.

    Timeframes are difficult. Im sure we could deliver *something* in six months, but I think a year is more realistic for the first images that will be widely useful in our community. Id love to be proven conservative on that :-) but I suspect its more likely to err the other way. It might take four or more years to really move the ecosystem. Progress on Wayland itself is sufficient for me to be confident that no other initiative could outrun it, especially if we deliver things like Unity and uTouch with it. And also if we make an early public statement in support of the project. Which this is!

    In coming to this view, several scenarios were considered.

    One is the continued improvement of X, which is a more vibrant project these days than it once was. X will be around a long time, hence the importance of our confidence levels on the idea of a compatibility environment. But we dont believe X is setup to deliver the user experience we want, with super-smooth graphics and effects. I understand that its *possible* to get amazing results with X, but its extremely hard, and isnt going to get easier. Some of the core goals of X make it harder to achieve these user experiences on X than on native GL, were choosing to prioritize the quality of experience over those original values, like network transparency.

    We considered the Android compositing environment. Its great for Android, but we felt it would be more difficult to bring the whole free software stack along with us if we pursued that direction.

    We considered and spoke with several proprietary options, on the basis that they might be persuaded to open source their work for a new push, and we evaluated the cost of building a new display manager, informed by the lessons learned in Wayland. We came to the conclusion that any such effort would only create a hard split in the world which wasnt worth the cost of having done it. There are issues with Wayland, but they seem to be solvable, wed rather be part of solving them than chasing a better alternative. So Wayland it is.

    In general, this will all be fine actually *great* for folks who have good open source drivers for their graphics hardware. Wayland depends on things they are all moving to support: kernel modesetting, gem buffers and so on. The requirement of EGL is new but consistent with industry standards from Khronos both GLES and GL will be supported. Wed like to hear from vendors for whom this would be problematic, but hope it provides yet another (and perhaps definitive) motive to move to open source drivers for all Linux work.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bug! View Post
    Representing Ubuntu, he was actually one of the first of all distros to express an explicit support for Wayland. He wrote the following in November 2010:
    http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551
    I was asking for a citation for the claim that Canonical/Shuttleworth "plans to take Ubuntu proprietary some where down the road". Nothing in that post suggests that... if that's what you were implying.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by jvillain View Post
    As Shuttleworth already stated he plans to take Ubuntu proprietary some where down the road I hope they stay out of it all together.
    That's a bunch of FUD from you:

    http://www.ubuntu.com/project/about-...our-philosophy

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Hopefully we're going to see the compositors being ported now that the protocol is set in stone with the 0.95.0 release, I think Wayland/Weston 1.0 is coming soon also, and that's where the protocol is supposed to be 100% frozen/stable and we should start seeing more applications and compositors working natively on Wayland from there.

    I think it's already amazing that Wayland/Weston can run on a stock Linux 3.x kernel with open-source graphics drivers, and that xwayland already exists, and the fact that most X11 applications work on Wayland/Weston, I mean, Wayland/Weston hasn't even reached 1.0 yet and it already does all this, I think Wayland/Weston has come a long way and it's amazing, I think it's going to be even more amazing once it reaches 1.0 and becomes the default windowing system in Linux and most distros.
    Just remember, that "frozen" does not mean "complete". Wayland 1.0 will lack in the protocol for anyone trying to support a full DE (or games, like you saw with that Doom 3 video). 1.0 only means, that the protocol existing so far is not going to be broken.

    Also, 1.0 does not mean it can become a default windowing system in desktop distros. It means, that toolkit, DE, and application developers can now start serious work on supporting Wayland without playing continuous catch-up with protocol changes.

    It is all exciting, yes, but distro migration to Wayland will be a long path. And when it's done right, you probably can't even see the difference, unless you know what to look for.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by asdx View Post
    Once Firefox finishes their port to GTK+3 it shouldn't be too hard to make it work on Wayland natively I believe.

    But it seems like they haven't finished the port to GTK+3 yet.

    https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=627699

    It's a good thing however that xwayland exists and that X11/GTK+ apps such as Firefox already work via xwayland. I think that we'll need to run some apps (such as Firefox) for a while via xwayland until they become native applications on Wayland, but it's a good thing that xwayland already provides this sort of backward compatibility for "legacy" applications.

    I think the most important thing right now is to get the compositors to work in Wayland natively (i.e. kwin, mutter, compiz, etc) and then the whole DEs like KDE, GNOME, etc. So that users can already use Wayland instead of X for our WMs and DEs, and so that distros can already ship Wayland by default. Once we have the DEs working natively on Wayland we can use xwayland to run the usual applications such as Firefox, until they become native Wayland applications.

    I think the progression to Wayland is going to be gradual, perhaps some applications will take longer to port, but since there is xwayland this shouldn't be a problem.

    Hopefully we're going to see the compositors being ported now that the protocol is set in stone with the 0.95.0 release, I think Wayland/Weston 1.0 is coming soon also, and that's where the protocol is supposed to be 100% frozen/stable and we should start seeing more applications and compositors working natively on Wayland from there.

    I think it's already amazing that Wayland/Weston can run on a stock Linux 3.x kernel with open-source graphics drivers, and that xwayland already exists, and the fact that most X11 applications work on Wayland/Weston, I mean, Wayland/Weston hasn't even reached 1.0 yet and it already does all this, I think Wayland/Weston has come a long way and it's amazing, I think it's going to be even more amazing once it reaches 1.0 and becomes the default windowing system in Linux and most distros.

    Wayland is amazing and a much needed change for Linux. Kudos to the Wayland developers.
    Libre Office is not running yet, Blender i think is not running and quite few more of the "big ones"

    On the DE front only enlightenment implemented client decorations but i have no idea if it can currently run as a whole desktop.

  6. #16
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    Dec 2009
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    Default slow as hell

    and still it's slow as hell.
    I remember, I have upgrade a couple of time since moment I bought quake 4.
    New video card/CPU/memory cards/MoBo never gave any performance increase(perhaps 3%).
    Looks like limitation of engine.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jvillain View Post
    As Shuttleworth already stated he plans to take Ubuntu proprietary some where down the road I hope they stay out of it all together.
    No, he didn't. Don't make baseless assertions.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    Libre Office is not running yet, Blender i think is not running and quite few more of the "big ones"

    On the DE front only enlightenment implemented client decorations but i have no idea if it can currently run as a whole desktop.
    with X compatibility shim libs for Wayland those apps that use legacy X should still be able to run fine on native Wayland until those apps are ported to run natively under Wayland.

    I for one would love to see Wayland become the default as it'll be a lighter, leaner display server that adds little overhead so that games and other intense graphical apps can run better, not to mention making it easier for driver developers to write and maintain drivers for

  9. #19
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    Maybe it's just me, but the framerate in that video seems pretty low for a game that's supposed to be 8 years old now. (it's not THAT low, but being a 8 year old game I would expect at least a constant 60 fps or higher)

    I wonder what sort of hardware the guy is running, and what's causing the low framerate...

    And it would be interesting to see the difference in framerate/performance between X11 and Wayland, that way we can know for sure if Wayland really is all what the developers seem to say it is.. a "simpler" and "faster" display protocol than X.

  10. #20
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    This is Doom 3 running on the free software drivers (as those are the only ones compatabile with Wayland). Since they still do not have the same performance as the proprieraey blobs of course the framerate is not going to be the highest. I do not understand the confusion.

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