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Thread: X.Org Foundation Issues Hasty CFP For XDC2012

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiiixy View Post
    Only if they're of Deutsche-origin. As was said above, there does seem to be an overwhelming amount negative coverage on Phoronix about X.Org, based on the feeds. As an impartial reader, that's looks about right. Speculatively, it looks as if Michael's expecting his posts to aid in motivating someone to do something
    Motivating who?!?!? Take a look at the number of people involved in, and working on, X.Org and the rest of the graphics stack. Seriously! WHO!?!?! There is a depressingly small number of people doing all the work on this very important project and these people are seriously spread thin. I've never talked with or heard of anyone who's been motivated by anything from phoronix. How the hell is "Those idiots at X have once again managed to show everyone how lazy and disorganized they are" supposed to be motivating?

    Hell, I'm told RedHat and Canonical are looking for people to work on X stuff and they can't find them. These are PAID positions and they can't fill them.

    Noone wants to do the work or even help, even it's it paid. They'd much rather have blogs and blog post where they can complain and feel smug.

    This isn't directed at you. Just a frustration I have.

    And yes, I know phoronix is all about any kind of controversy so it can get more page hits and advertising money. Up until now I've avoided feeding the troll, but this time was too much. Yes, I made some mistakes but at least I am trying to help the project and am honestly contributing. I did the CFP because I was trying to help. I spend time trying looking into how to do something (a CFP) and trying to help a project and Michael craps on my work, never contacts me about it even though I sent him the email about the CFP 10 minute after I posted it, and gets page hits (advertizing dollars) off of it. Yea, you're a real standup guy Michael.

  2. #12
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    Hey mr armchair quarterback.

    Michael does a lot to inform the general people about many things. If it just happens that the X.org foundation, as it is today, responds slowly and misses quite a few things, then is michael not allowed to inform people about that?

    Also. Michael did actually organize an XDC himself, in case you forgot, and has been very directly involved with some of the boards mismanagements regarding communication and payment.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by curaga View Post
    I feel he's correct about the X.org foundation, not just trying to get more page views. They could fairly easily re-set up their old funding models and hire a fulltime person for managing it.

    Having someone dedicated to pushing X would certainly change things a bit.
    Oh, i agree that Michael's criticisms are 100% accurate in this case. I just think the copy/paste nature of these articles constantly coming out says something about the intentions behind them, and i don't think it's necessarily that he thinks X.Org will fix anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcoz View Post
    Motivating who?!?!? Take a look at the number of people involved in, and working on, X.Org and the rest of the graphics stack. Seriously! WHO!?!?! There is a depressingly small number of people doing all the work on this very important project and these people are seriously spread thin. I've never talked with or heard of anyone who's been motivated by anything from phoronix. How the hell is "Those idiots at X have once again managed to show everyone how lazy and disorganized they are" supposed to be motivating?

    Hell, I'm told RedHat and Canonical are looking for people to work on X stuff and they can't find them. These are PAID positions and they can't fill them.

    Noone wants to do the work or even help, even it's it paid. They'd much rather have blogs and blog post where they can complain and feel smug.

    This isn't directed at you. Just a frustration I have.

    And yes, I know phoronix is all about any kind of controversy so it can get more page hits and advertising money. Up until now I've avoided feeding the troll, but this time was too much. Yes, I made some mistakes but at least I am trying to help the project and am honestly contributing. I did the CFP because I was trying to help. I spend time trying looking into how to do something (a CFP) and trying to help a project and Michael craps on my work, never contacts me about it even though I sent him the email about the CFP 10 minute after I posted it, and gets page hits (advertizing dollars) off of it. Yea, you're a real standup guy Michael.
    No offence taken =) I didn't intend to stir anyone up, just merely reinforced an observation us plebs have. The PR side of things I guess. And we all know too well that doesn't always relate to reality of a situation (prime example, nVidia). It's interesting to hear the plight of the organisation. It does begger the question however, have X.Orger's posted here previously of their situatation regarding lack of help? I've only really only started recently with reading the forums (after reading them years ago, they were pretty fiery and not my cup of earl grey, black!) so personally, I'm just asking. It's interesting to note that even paid for pistitions with Red Hat, and even Canonical, can't be filled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stiiixy View Post
    No offence taken =) I didn't intend to stir anyone up, just merely reinforced an observation us plebs have. The PR side of things I guess. And we all know too well that doesn't always relate to reality of a situation (prime example, nVidia). It's interesting to hear the plight of the organisation. It does begger the question however, have X.Orger's posted here previously of their situatation regarding lack of help? I've only really only started recently with reading the forums (after reading them years ago, they were pretty fiery and not my cup of earl grey, black!) so personally, I'm just asking. It's interesting to note that even paid for pistitions with Red Hat, and even Canonical, can't be filled.
    I normally don't get stirred up but I find X.Org has turned into everyone's easy punching bag and I don't like it; perhaps that's made me a bit over-sensitive.
    Everyone on X is aware of that observation. It's hard not to be aware when every forum and every LUG (that I've ever been to) reiterates it.

    X.Org gets very little PR and very little of that is positive. If we had a PR person that would probably help, but that goes back to noone wants to get involved. I've tried to help in this regard (PR) but I'm not good at it.

    I've seen a few X.Org folks post here but I don't know how often that is nor what all they've posted in the past. Personally, I know I've emailed phoronix 3 times with news or something that might be of interest (including this CFP) and each time, after I see the result, I just shake my head. You'd think after the second time I would have learned. I guess I'm hopelessly optimistic... or stupid. I'm leaning towards the latter. If the others have had similar experiences, I could see them just staying away. Obviously, I can't, nor would I, speak for them.

    I have only seen a couple fiery threads. The X.Org guys are, for the most part, pretty laid back, easy going and fun to hang out with. Are you referring to the XFre86 days? X.Org and XFree86, from everything I know and have learned, are night and day different in this regard.

    If you are able, I highly recommend you come to XDC. You'll learn more about X and the people involved than you ever will otherwise. We can go out for beers and I'll buy the first round.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by libv View Post
    Hey mr armchair quarterback.

    Michael does a lot to inform the general people about many things. If it just happens that the X.org foundation, as it is today, responds slowly and misses quite a few things, then is michael not allowed to inform people about that?
    Please explain to me how you got 'not allowed to inform' out of my posts? This is Luc right? C'mon man, I'm trying to help the project. Look at my history on the ML and commit logs.

    Depressingly, you reinforce my point. That's pretty much ALL Michael does; point out the misteps and mistakes. There's ~50? people doing the work of what should be probably several hundred. Have you seen the mailing lists? These guys are machines! But there's still stressingly few of them. Mistakes are guaranteed to happen. When I complain that maybe MIcheal is a little too giddy over giving negative coverage of X.Org, you reply with '...not allowed to inform...' ? To me that seems a pretty big stretch.


    There are so many stories and articles that MIchael _could_ write about X.Org happenings that would be really cool and interesting and motivating to read, but instead he focuses on getting something out as quick as possible, especially if it's negative (to drive page hits and therefore ad revenue I'm guessing).


    Quote Originally Posted by libv View Post
    Also. Michael did actually organize an XDC himself, in case you forgot, and has been very directly involved with some of the boards mismanagements regarding communication and payment.
    I didn't forget phoronix's sponsoring of XDC2011. It was in Chicago last year and I was there. Props to Michael for doing that.

    But you'll notice there's no coverage of the EVoC students getting their midpoint payments on time nor what Stuart had to put up with to make that happen.

  7. #17
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    But you'll notice there's no coverage of the EVoC students getting their midpoint payments on time nor what Stuart had to put up with to make that happen.
    Stop teasing and give the URL already to where this _is_ covered then

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcoz View Post
    If we had a PR person that would probably help, but that goes back to noone wants to get involved. I've tried to help in this regard (PR) but I'm not good at it.
    As others have also mentioned, there's a number of ways that could be improved upon from partnering with different organizations (find out how to better collaborate with the Linux Foundation, etc) to using more of the Xorg funds that have been building up (and going back to soliciting Intel/Oracle/etc for funding that since stopped since all it was doing is sitting in their bank account) so then someone could be hired part time for PR/accounting/whatever to various other possible avenues to improve the foundation.

    Quote Originally Posted by marcoz View Post
    Depressingly, you reinforce my point. That's pretty much ALL Michael does; point out the misteps and mistakes. There's ~50? people doing the work of what should be probably several hundred. Have you seen the mailing lists? These guys are machines! But there's still stressingly few of them. Mistakes are guaranteed to happen. When I complain that maybe MIcheal is a little too giddy over giving negative coverage of X.Org, you reply with '...not allowed to inform...' ? To me that seems a pretty big stretch.

    There are so many stories and articles that MIchael _could_ write about X.Org happenings that would be really cool and interesting and motivating to read, but instead he focuses on getting something out as quick as possible, especially if it's negative (to drive page hits and therefore ad revenue I'm guessing).
    Do you not count the dozen of X.Org-related posts I write about each week when it comes to new features or improvements to graphics drivers, etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by marcoz View Post
    I didn't forget phoronix's sponsoring of XDC2011. It was in Chicago last year and I was there. Props to Michael for doing that.
    I'm sponsoring again this year I believe, I've been talking some logistics with Egbert.

    Quote Originally Posted by marcoz View Post
    But you'll notice there's no coverage of the EVoC students getting their midpoint payments on time nor what Stuart had to put up with to make that happen.
    This shouldn't be news when something is on time and what is expected of any responsible organization. If I wrote that payments actually went out on time, most people would find it boring or think I'm making fun of the organization for finally getting something out on time. But they did finally get a payment out on time? This is news to me; the BoD meeting IRC logs haven't been updated on the X.Org Wiki since mid-July so it's missing the last meeting or two...

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcoz View Post
    Please explain to me how you got 'not allowed to inform' out of my posts? This is Luc right? C'mon man, I'm trying to help the project. Look at my history on the ML and commit logs.

    Depressingly, you reinforce my point. That's pretty much ALL Michael does; point out the misteps and mistakes. There's ~50? people doing the work of what should be probably several hundred. Have you seen the mailing lists? These guys are machines! But there's still stressingly few of them. Mistakes are guaranteed to happen. When I complain that maybe MIcheal is a little too giddy over giving negative coverage of X.Org, you reply with '...not allowed to inform...' ? To me that seems a pretty big stretch.


    There are so many stories and articles that MIchael _could_ write about X.Org happenings that would be really cool and interesting and motivating to read, but instead he focuses on getting something out as quick as possible, especially if it's negative (to drive page hits and therefore ad revenue I'm guessing).
    What else is there to report? Michael spends most of his time looking at actual technical advances. Pointing both out improvements and issues, and quite often showing benchmarks as well.

    So what are the boards assignments and how is the board fulfilling them? Imho it should be more than a twice monthly phonecall just after lunch, just to state that "i didn't act upon X or Y in the last two weeks". It should take more than that to be able to plaster "X.org Foundation board member" over your CV.

    The big thing over the last three years was the 501whatever thing? How long did that take? How long would it have really taken if some people took _real_ control and action and made a bit of a stink from time to time? And then when it _finally_ was done, michael was the only one to mention it to the wide world!

    Quote Originally Posted by marcoz View Post
    I didn't forget phoronix's sponsoring of XDC2011. It was in Chicago last year and I was there. Props to Michael for doing that.

    But you'll notice there's no coverage of the EVoC students getting their midpoint payments on time nor what Stuart had to put up with to make that happen.
    I hope you do know the story behind what happened at XDC2011. I hope that you have been informed that we probably will never ever get those nice rooms at McCormick university again. Feel free to ask your fellow board members what happened there.

    Michael sponsored a few things, but he spent a lot of his time organizing things, with the cost of manpower these days, that is his biggest contribution. Also, Michael tends to spend quite a lot of his time making recordings and capturing "X.org" events. He tends to spend quite a lot of time in often scorching hot DevRooms at FOSDEM, making sure that people everywhere can capture some of that is presented there.

    As the organizer of the Xorg devrooms at FOSDEM, i try to avoid the board as much as possible. Luckily, with an event like fosdem, this is an easy thing to do. The few organizational bits that i need for the devroom, i happily pay for myself. A social event also is no longer an official event. I just let people know verbosely where i and some other guys will go in brussels, and this works out real fine and gets us really pleasant evenings with little stress. The only bit i the board does get involved is for sponsorship, and i try to stay as far away from that as possible, i "trust" the board does right to those who want to be sponsored. I would however like to see more accountability, and at the end of the financial year, i would like to see who was sent where for what money in the financial report, which, in my opinion, should be produced _before_ the next elections start.

    So again, what has the X.org board achieved over the last few years?

    * 501c3
    * (barely) yearly elections
    * barely acceptable accounting of its own finances (i trust that it has become a bit better in the last few years, after the big stink i made 3 years ago)

    Even to me, it seems that the X.org foundation simply exists to support and warrant its own existence.

    The real things that the X.org foundation should be associated with are:
    * Organizing and sponsoring conferences.
    * Organizing and sponsoring infrastructure.

    Let's look at the trackrecord there:

    Conferences:
    * FOSDEM... Well, i just explained the actual X.org foundation involvement in that.
    * XDC:
    ** 2010: Matthieu organized it in Toulouse: Massive success, but somehow the money stuff went all wrong and 10k usd were lost.
    ** 2011: Michael organized it in chicago: Another massive success. But social event sponsoring fell through in the last month, and the university was paid very late and we got the student union banned from organizing anything at the university and we pretty much can never use their facilities again.
    ** 2012: Egbert is organizing things at the SuSE office in nuernberg, which will mean that the required board involvement is already very little. Yet egbert did see the need to write a _very_ angry email already. Seems like the board is off to a good start already.

    Infrastructure:
    * What X.org board paid for services really exist?
    * All that seems to be there is fd.o, where:
    ** All data in ~ was lost a few years ago, as it was deemed that backing up all those nifty little tidbits (like users git repos) were not worth backing up.
    ** account and project creation are prioritized and or accepted on often political grounds.
    ** admins abused their root access to vandalize a repo.

    I don't think that there really is much more that the X.org foundation should be responsible for, but its trackrecord is really rather poor and it seems that the X.org foundation board members are quite desinterested in anything that serves others.

    Heck, for the last few years i have been proposing future board members (i think i was the only one doing so last time round), based on who i think are not just talkers but who are also do-ers, people with a long history of involvement in X and related topics, and who i think would drive the X.org board into a positive, not-navel-staring direction. I have had very little success with this, as many of them simply refuse to run for the board. Part of it is them not wanting to partake in the often very nasty politics of X.org, but the biggest reason is that these people tend to be do-ers, not talkers.

    Talk less. Do more. And then michael will have positive things to write about.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by libv View Post
    The big thing over the last three years was the 501whatever thing? How long did that take? How long would it have really taken if some people took _real_ control and action and made a bit of a stink from time to time? And then when it _finally_ was done, michael was the only one to mention it to the wide world!
    The more pressing question that should be asked is what the X.Org Foundation plans to do differently now that it's a registered 501(c)(3) organization. They can now more easily collect funds from companies (and individuals) in a tax-free manner, but will the X.Org Foundation now go ahead and try to get back to requesting funds from the different companies -- with a pledge to do something with the funds? It's been much time and several board meetings since the 501(c)(3) status was made known, but there's been no action as far as I know of actually engaging in anything new.

    Quote Originally Posted by libv View Post
    Michael sponsored a few things, but he spent a lot of his time organizing things, with the cost of manpower these days, that is his biggest contribution.
    There's also my original XDC proposal - http://www.michaellarabel.com/misc/x...o-proposal.pdf - which I believe I've ever been the only one to actually file a formal proposal backed by data. There was also organized the social event at the Argonne National Laboratories, but that had to be canned when it was waiting too long to find out if there was to be a sponsored Intel/X.Org dinner on the schedule or not. Originally I was told Intel was to be sponsoring something, but that never panned out and so that's why at the last minute I decided to sponsor a 'beer afternoon' so it wouldn't look like a total haphazard and cheap event. And since I like German beer and since I haven't heard of any organization sponsoring any XDC2012 event, I've been talking to Egbert about sponsoring beer again.

    Quote Originally Posted by libv View Post
    I don't think that there really is much more that the X.org foundation should be responsible for, but its trackrecord is really rather poor and it seems that the X.org foundation board members are quite desinterested in anything that serves others.
    I do applaud their recent EVoC initiatives, but it wasn't until late last year (and not being in GSoC) that EVoC was really even promoted or talked about...

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