id Software: Linux Hasn't Produced Positive Results

[Scali]

i think that game content quality is a very hard thing to judge. i mean that it depends on how the game designer sees the game while creating it. the Frictional Game devs (amnesia, prenumbra) did release good games with a damn good content quality even though it's a indie studio. there are many good looking games out there but other than graphics quality the game is bad, really bad. Rage looks damn nice but the game is rather dull gameplay/storyline wise.

Well, content is more than just graphics quality. It also includes things like level design, which are a result of the storyline and gameplay. So implicitly the gameplay/storyline is part of the content (as I tried to explain with Portal/HL2/L4D: three games using the same engine to create quite different types of games... One is a platform/puzzle game, one is very much story-driven, and one is a co-op multiplayer shooter).

[johnc]

Linux isn't winning on phones, Android is... And mostly because of the reasons he states: Android is a far more 'fixed' target than linux is. You have the standard Dalvik VM environment, with standard runtime libs etc.
A very important point: binary compatibility. People can just download binaries from the Google Play store, and things Just Work(tm). Across different vendors, different versions of the OS, different brands of CPU/GPU, different revisions of the hardware etc. To a certain extent even x86-based Android-devices are supported out-of-the-box, even though the platform was 100% ARM-based until recently.
This is a *very* different environment from your average linux distribution. Even on the exact same hardware you often can't use packages for one distro on the other, or even from a different version of the same distro. Dependency hell, lack of standardized environment etc.
(Yes, even OpenGL on Android is not OpenGL on linux. Android uses OpenGL ES, which is a much more streamlined version without legacy crud, and a much more fixed featureset than the old OpenGL).

But Carmack is highly critical of Android and doesn't want to develop for it specifically because it's so fragmented.

Yes, if you have a Java app then it'll work across devices but once you get into the NDK and then into GLES you're in a world of hurt. Many of the top phones are smoothening some of that mess out, but it in the past it's been difficult.

[Scali]

But Carmack is highly critical of Android and doesn't want to develop for it specifically because it's so fragmented

And he is right. Even though Android is infinitely less fragmented than linux is, it is still quite fragmented compared to other platforms, such as the iPhone.

Yes, if you have a Java app then it'll work across devices but once you get into the NDK and then into GLES you're in a world of hurt. Many of the top phones are smoothening some of that mess out, but it in the past it's been difficult.

Been there, done that, blogged about how shitty Google's native support is...
In the end it was just a few days of hard work though. Once you've abstracted away the quirkiness, it's smooth sailing from then on. A few days on a project that takes months or years is no big deal really.

[Setlec]

Well, content is more than just graphics quality. It also includes things like level design, which are a result of the storyline and gameplay. So implicitly the gameplay/storyline is part of the content (as I tried to explain with Portal/HL2/L4D: three games using the same engine to create quite different types of games... One is a platform/puzzle game, one is very much story-driven, and one is a co-op multiplayer shooter).

errr, i think you misunderstood my post. actually my post is the very same thing that you just posted... unless my english sucks then let me say sorry if my post is ambiguous.

[finalzone]

Scali,
You know that Android is a Linux based system right?

[Setlec]

linux here i think is used as GNU/Linux and not as the linux kernel.... Android is build upon linux kernel and not based on a GNu/Linux Distrib.

[Scali]

Scali,
You know that Android is a Linux based system right?

Duh?
However, did you get ANY of the points I was making as to why you can't just say Android is 'just another linux distribution' just because there happens to be a linux kernel in there somewhere? The ecosystem is very different, in a very important way as far as (commercial) developers are concerned.

[russofris]

Michael,

In the article, you say:

Now during Carmack's annual keynote at QuakeCon, he didn't have anything good to say about Linux -- the open-source operating system hasn't produced positive results for them. "Linux development is another story altogether. Even though Valve is now actively pursuing the Linux market, iD has been there before, and just has not seen positive results. Remember how many past titles from iD actually ran on Linux, and for how long these were supported? John says that Linux development simply does not pay the bills. It creates goodwill among the Linux crowd, but that is about it."

Which implies Carmack said all of this.

Perhaps I'm wrong and am having a senior moment. What H:M:S into the keynote do you feel he said this? I just watched the keynote and didn't find any of that.

If this is the case, you really need to fix this and apologize. You can't just go making up quotes or putting someone else's name on another person's quotes. Did he say this after the keynote to you personally? Did you accidentally put quotes around your own editorialization?


F

[Scali]

linux here i think is used as GNU/Linux and not as the linux kernel.... Android is build upon linux kernel and not based on a GNu/Linux Distrib.

Doesn't even matter in this context.
The whole problem with linux distros stems from the fact that the kernel itself is one of very few common factors.
So "Android is not linux" can be interpreted in two ways:
1) Android is not a GNU/linux distribution
2) Android is not linux, it is linux (the kernel) and a whole lot more

In either case it supports the point I'm making, that the success is not a result of the linux kernel, but a result of the Android platform as a whole (which arguably would have been just as successful with any other kernel).

[Scali]

Michael,

In the article, you say:



Which implies Carmack said all of this.

Perhaps I'm wrong and am having a senior moment. What H:M:S into the keynote do you feel he said this? I just watched the keynote and didn't find any of that.

If this is the case, you really need to fix this and apologize. You can't just go making up quotes or putting someone else's name on another person's quotes. Did he say this after the keynote to you personally? Did you accidentally put quotes around your own editorialization?


F

That quote was taken from here: http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editori...n-2012-Keynote
Not a quote of John Carmack.