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Thread: Radeon Power Management Still An Incomplete Mess

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    Apart from a few morons i don't thinks there is a problem with flaming. Most of the people understand that HW companies are just that. Organizations making money. Some are more "helpful" than others when it comes to FOSS but that doesn't mean that everyone in the management necessarily understand free and open or want to be free and open.
    damn right. they only care for free and open if they can make more money than with closed and slavery and the reality show the fact that they can make more money on slavery and closed stuff.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by necro-lover View Post
    damn right. they only care for free and open if they can make more money than with closed and slavery and the reality show the fact that they can make more money on slavery and closed stuff.
    I don't see making money as something bad. If you don't like their ways don't buy their products. ASAT.

    If AMD had a full featured (good performance, PM, VA, OpenCL etc) open driver i suspect they would be making much more from Linux and they would probably kick nvidia out of the linux market.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    I don't see making money as something bad. If you don't like their ways don't buy their products. ASAT.

    If AMD had a full featured (good performance, PM, VA, OpenCL etc) open driver i suspect they would be making much more from Linux and they would probably kick nvidia out of the linux market.
    Good or Bad who cares about this childish anyway?

    They laugh at the Linux market. And the Linux people buy there (amd/nvidia/intel) products anyway.

    There is no need for them to chance anything because the people do not have a choice.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    I don't see making money as something bad.
    You can either be a good fella or very rich fella.

    I don't remember who said this.

    The problem is that if monetary profits are made first priority; quality, reputation, relations, truth are sacrificed. Then, it is just a matter of time, before the pyramid breaks. There will be many affected customers and a lot of anger. Before the pyramid breaks, the money is usually removed from the system (forcing the breakage to come even faster) and the main "actor" tries to cover his tracks asap.

    Theory aside, look at current state of agriculture-, animal- and especially food markets. Especially, if you live in USA as most of the "profit technologies" are juridically allowed there and patent/know-how protection systems, as well as manufacturer-payed "research" prevent to uncover the true effect.

    Genetically modified species, large scale antibiotics-/pesticide- applications, growth hormones/nitrogen fertilizers, genetically modified soy-replacements paired with glutamates and/or artificial flavorings (to compensate for absence of natural flavorings), unhygienic, extremely bad conditions - are all methods for "fast moneymaking". I have spoken with people in food industry within Germany and idea is that human genomes are already heavily damaged. Our children will pay for "money making".

    Making money is a crime. It contradicts with making good fair product. Industry should be making good product instead. This is regulated by state, however, if industry takes over the state, this will lead to this.

    Continuous growth, by whichever means possible. Exactly as cancer.

    By the way... Bill Gates is contributing to making human genome bank... Maybe he will sponsor the "WGA"-equivalent injection into genome.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by tstrunk View Post
    Might I therefore suggest the following strategy for de-escalation: Michael could setup a forum, where only X developers and people selected by them (bridgeman for example) have access and everybody else only gets read access.
    I believe everyone of you has the same goal: To make the open driver better. The fragmented discussion in the current style will only make matters worse over time. In the single forum you can record your demands to AMD/ATI, bridgeman can answer and you can respond without people crying foul in between.
    I support this.

    Also, we, uninformed people DO trust people, those who actually write the code in the open driver. Not the ones who talk and/or misguide.

    The situation now from my, excuse me, uninformed point of view is that I think twice/or tripple, before buying AMD card.

    For example, 7750 or higher model, or 68xx model. AMD is aware of this, they find this loosing position completely acceptable.

    If compared to Intel, although, excuse me for my uninformed point of view, their hardware is relatively very primitive, the combination of CPU with driver DOES produce good results.

    I, the uninformed one (no sarcasm here), will gladly buy Intel hardware to use with Intel opensource driver. Intel is aware of this.


    My uninformed opinion is that this is pure planned management failure.


    //geforce(incl. nouveau)/intel hardware user

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    You can either be a good fella or very rich fella.

    I don't remember who said this.
    Bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    The problem is that if monetary profits are made first priority; quality, reputation, relations, truth are sacrificed. Then, it is just a matter of time, before the pyramid breaks. There will be many affected customers and a lot of anger. Before the pyramid breaks, the money is usually removed from the system (forcing the breakage to come even faster) and the main "actor" tries to cover his tracks asap.

    Theory aside, look at current state of agriculture-, animal- and especially food markets. Especially, if you live in USA as most of the "profit technologies" are juridically allowed there and patent/know-how protection systems, as well as manufacturer-payed "research" prevent to uncover the true effect.

    Genetically modified species, large scale antibiotics-/pesticide- applications, growth hormones/nitrogen fertilizers, genetically modified soy-replacements paired with glutamates and/or artificial flavorings (to compensate for absence of natural flavorings), unhygienic, extremely bad conditions - are all methods for "fast moneymaking". I have spoken with people in food industry within Germany and idea is that human genomes are already heavily damaged. Our children will pay for "money making".

    Making money is a crime. It contradicts with making good fair product. Industry should be making good product instead. This is regulated by state, however, if industry takes over the state, this will lead to this.

    Continuous growth, by whichever means possible. Exactly as cancer.

    By the way... Bill Gates is contributing to making human genome bank... Maybe he will sponsor the "WGA"-equivalent injection into genome.
    We are not talking about pyramid schemes here. Someone is offering a product and someone -assuming the product fulfills his needs- buys it. Problems start only when you don't have enough choices. (which is the case in computing). The rest is taken care by market laws.

    On the genetically modified stuff you are in a great extend wrong. Genetic modification has been happening since the start of farming/agriculture etc. They were breeding selectively or were planting seeds from plants that had more fruits etc. Also science allowed us to feed more people than 200 years ago. Ask any farmer how much crop a field was producing 70 years ago. Everything is better. And its getting better by the day and by invention. And yes patents keep us back in a way.

    Also don't worry about human genomes. Nature has its way off sorting things like that. Evolution works (slowly ).

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    Bullshit.
    Its not. See for yourself your own phrase:

    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    We are not talking about pyramid schemes here. Someone is offering a product and someone -assuming the product fulfills his needs- buys it. Problems start only when you don't have enough choices. (which is the case in computing). The rest is taken care by market laws.
    Monopolization is one of the requirements to shift into making money. You can either be good guy, or very rich guy.

    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    On the genetically modified stuff you are in a great extend wrong. Genetic modification has been happening since the start of farming/agriculture etc. They were breeding selectively or were planting seeds from plants that had more fruits etc.
    This is not genetic modification. Selection is natural way to sort better, balanced, complete exemplars, indirect modification, modification of the environiment and challenge for the species to adopt themselves - if they can.
    At certain level, there is a barrier. If they can't, they die. Basta. You can't grow any animal 50 kg in 5 months, so that it stays healthy outside, inside and inside on genetic level.
    This is where the limit of "good guy" lies. Past the limit is the "rich guy".

    Do you know why most americans are fat-asses? I will give you a tip. Thats not because they don't move, its because of they eat.
    The 50kg baby from 1 to 5 months is possible, if you directly genetically modify the embryo (no selection here).
    Then, the embryo is fed with growth hormones. Baking or cooking such meat will not destroy majority of these substances, it is the magical secret of american fat-ass-dom. Food.
    Then, there is even more "rich guy" methods - maximize the outcome, minimize the farm area. Animals are stacked together (see your talk about monopoly above) in closed buildings without any windows. Very often even without light. They die and shit below. They panic. To compensate the stress and minimize the losses (yes, there are massive amounts of stress hormones and high infection level) they are injected with antibiotics.
    This is 50kg in 5 months. The rich guy version. Americans eat this. Cheap meat en masse equals high income. But the manufacturing costs are much much lower, for $5 steak the manufacturing costs lie below $2.

    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    Also science allowed us to feed more people than 200 years ago. Ask any farmer how much crop a field was producing 70 years ago. Everything is better. And its getting better by the day and by invention. And yes patents keep us back in a way. Also don't worry about human genomes. Nature has its way off sorting things like that. Evolution works (slowly ).
    I have talked to farmers, have you? I know that you are very good hacker, but I am very sure you havenīt hacked good enough on this area. They buy corn, which is programmed to not give any seeds. Corn, which is tested and approved, but with certification authorities actually PAID by the corn maker itself, closing the loop. You can't attest anything bad about the corn - you will not get paid and you can't publish the results, because the work was conducted on money of the creator and as such stays under his copyright, you are full NDA.

    "The nature way of sorting things like that" is very simple - try to pump too much air into the balloon. The rest about escaping "rich guy" was written above.

    Why was I writing all this - this is the way Microsoft ticks. The way AMD current driver policy ticks. They are not "good guys", they are "rich guys". Mainstream, volume, fairy tale of no control and impotence of the individual.
    Last edited by crazycheese; 09-10-2012 at 05:48 PM.

  8. #38
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    I am no hacker.

    My grandparents were farmers in an era where much more work was required and the harvest wasn't as good as today. I know the situation about the seeds -and i don't like it- but then again i think of all the benefits technology -and genetical engineering- gave us. Instead of waiting nature to evolve and make the seeds better scientist came in and did it faster.

    Also keep in mind that even the cheapest meat today is far better than the meat people were eating 100 years ago.

    I don't disagree that there are kinks in the whole thing but these get sorted out with time.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazycheese View Post
    I support this.

    Also, we, uninformed people DO trust people, those who actually write the code in the open driver. Not the ones who talk and/or misguide.

    The situation now from my, excuse me, uninformed point of view is that I think twice/or tripple, before buying AMD card.

    For example, 7750 or higher model, or 68xx model. AMD is aware of this, they find this loosing position completely acceptable.

    If compared to Intel, although, excuse me for my uninformed point of view, their hardware is relatively very primitive, the combination of CPU with driver DOES produce good results.

    I, the uninformed one (no sarcasm here), will gladly buy Intel hardware to use with Intel opensource driver. Intel is aware of this.


    My uninformed opinion is that this is pure planned management failure.


    //geforce(incl. nouveau)/intel hardware user
    I really wonder, what you are doing in this thread?
    1. You are uninformed
    2. You currently don't use AMD products
    3. You won't buy/use AMD products

    I mean that in a funny kind of way... go and buy Nvidia, so you don't have to care about open source.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 89c51 View Post
    I am no hacker.

    My grandparents were farmers in an era where much more work was required and the harvest wasn't as good as today. I know the situation about the seeds -and i don't like it- but then again i think of all the benefits technology -and genetical engineering- gave us. Instead of waiting nature to evolve and make the seeds better scientist came in and did it faster.

    Also keep in mind that even the cheapest meat today is far better than the meat people were eating 100 years ago.

    I don't disagree that there are kinks in the whole thing but these get sorted out with time.
    Well, I still do some farming from time to time. I am helping my father. 100 years ago there were no steroids in meat. That is why Americans are so big. Also our bodies are adapted by evolution to digest current plants and animals. Introducing different kind of protein (as in soy), can have Unforeseen Consequences ( off-topic: Hello Black Mesa), including cancer.

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