Radeon Power Management Still An Incomplete Mess

[archibald]

100 years ago there were no steroids in meat. That is why Americans are so big.

1) Please don't trawl for national stereotypes, it can work both ways and it's unpleasant for all concerned.
2) If you have a good source for saying that steroids in meat are a major cause of obesity then please cite it. Currently you've asserted it without backing it up.

Introducing different kind of protein (as in soy), can have Unforeseen Consequences, including cancer.

Please cite a reputable source (i.e. a medical journal) for soy causing cancer. If you don't have a solid source then please don't spread FUD.

In any case, it seems that we've veered off-topic.

[crazycheese]

I really wonder, what you are doing in this thread?
1. You are uninformed
2. You currently don't use AMD products
3. You won't buy/use AMD products

I mean that in a funny kind of way... go and buy Nvidia, so you don't have to care about open source.

Hi!

I bought HD4670 (80€, RMAed) and in a year had to cherry-pick HD4770 (120€, because evergreens were unsupported, pre HD5000 were already outdated and hard to find).
To use with AMD opensource driver.

Between 4670 and 4770, I had to buy and use 9800GT, because opensource driver was garbage and fglrx panic'ed the kernel when I switched tty's and had very slow 2D.
Mr. Bridgeman has explicitly recommended me to use Nvidia product.
With 9800GT problems were solved.

Then in a year, I had to search for an older card - hw accelerated 3d has appeared, but in open arena was running at 20fps, out of 300 possible. The PM didn't work, as almost every feature for which you buy discrete card.
This time I bought 260gtx used.

I am Linux desktop user.
I am here to state that AMD policy is to do ANYTHING to prevent opensource development.
I am here to state that AMD does EVERYTHING to make Linux desktop users buy OLD cards.
I am here to state that AMD does EVERYTHING to keep Linux desktop percentage very low.
I am here to state that AMD management refuses to change anything in situation or seek ways to improve it.
I was prevented by AMD to buy their cards 2 years ago.
AMD management has recommended me to buy Nvidia.

Below are AMD management policy analysis, based on management responses:

AMD 2-year-ago policy was to butcher the buyers into position to avoid buying their cards by not-supporting the opensource driver by any means possible.
No manpower->Bad driver->No buyers->Justification for not investing->(rewind)

Current AMD policy is to improve closed source driver and to keep macing anyone who goes for opensource.
No manpower->Bad open driver, no one wants to buy hardware for(1)->Use Catalyst instead(2)(5)->We won't open our secrets(3) - to small open driver market(4)->Justification for not investing in opensource, but in closed source (5) ->(rewind)

This are AMD management loops. Intel and Nvidia loops are at bottom for comparison.

Below are three quotes found in this article, which prove this self-breaking management loop. All quotes by AMD management:
1)
"If we have trouble getting approval to release a specific block of programming info, do you think we would have an easier time releasing the same info mixed with 5 million lines of proprietary source code, particularly when that source code is written to work across multiple OSes and most of those OSes *require* robust DRM as part of the design(2)?"
Remark number one: under Linux no DRM is required, fglrx can cut all DRM out.
Remark number two: this is used to justify closed source linux driver importance over opensource linux driver. It denotes the current policy to invest in closed driver.

2)
"The GPU business is *very* competitive, and small differences in performance & features drive many of the buying decisions.(1) The cost of driver development is the primary entry barrier for new competitors. Why would an established vendor give away their competitive advantage(3)?"
Remark number one: this demonstrates that AMD management understands that with bad driver - no one will buy the cards, resulting in small marketshare.
Remark number two: Intel gave away "advantages", which are patented anyway, and users have fast opensource driver and Intel has marketshare - contrary to AMD management claims.

3)
"Is it worth trying to match fglrx with the current code ? I don't think so (other than for r600 and below)(5). Is it worth improving the current code enough to give a bunch of current users full use of the profile mechanism (and maybe a few options in between), particularly on middling-old hardwere(4) ? I think so..."
Remark number one: two years ago fglrx was so broken, opensource driver was the only hope by many for a quality linux driver. Now, closed source driver is "suddenly" the new hope by AMD itself. Why? Because they pay for it!
Remark number two: "middling-old hardwere" and "bunch" are direct results of driver quality. There is no coincidence, that people who use opensource are "bunch" and use "middling-old hardwere". This is used to justify bad support of open driver further.

Nvidia management loop:
is it worth to support current linux market?->pay linux team to adopt x-platform closed source driver->driver is working for current cards? ->(rewind)
Remarks: Driver is not opensource - people still get offended, non-mainstream OSes are not supported. Driver works, hardware is bought. No questions if its Linux or not asked, goal is to give maximum support for hardware under any mainstream OS.

Intel management loop:
was the calculation of amount of investment is required for driver to work, appropriate (based on current global hardware marketshare)? -> aggregate the required financial amount -> improve the deficiencies for newer hardware with priority -> better marketshare -> (rewind)
Remarks: Opensource driver that works. Check recent linux marketshare changes to see Intel efficiently fight both AMD and Nvidia in low segments. Affects mostly AMD, because Nvidia has still good performance in high performance segment due to Intel hardware weaknesses.

I hope this answers your question.

[crazycheese]

1) Please don't trawl for national stereotypes, it can work both ways and it's unpleasant for all concerned.
2) If you have a good source for saying that steroids in meat are a major cause of obesity then please cite it. Currently you've asserted it without backing it up.

https://www.google.com/search?q=anim...oid+human+meat

Please cite a reputable source (i.e. a medical journal) for soy causing cancer. If you don't have a solid source then please don't spread FUD.

Andrés Carrasco. "GM soy: Sustainable? Responsible?"
This is wide known fact among oncologists that genetically modified soy-beans are cancer provoking. Natural soy is not. But natural soy is very rare and soy in common is used to replace/dither meat(up to 100%), reducing the taste. The latter "effect" is "compensated" with flavor-enhancers (glutamate, yeast(more modern approach)) which by themself are cancer provoking, or at higher replacement percentages by artificial flavorings which are heavily cancer provoking.
If you call this "FUD", I recommend you to do some serious research.

In any case, it seems that we've veered off-topic.

Yes.
Original claim was "money making is good". As you can see, "money making" is good up to certain efficiency degree, going past this degree produces bad results and should be illegal, yet it is allowed.
Creating monopolies and cartels is one of the "bad moneymaking" practices, which are employed by microsoft and similar.

[disi]

I am not so much interested in management. So you bought a HD4770, me too! This was >3 years ago and the open driver was unusable in the beginning. I wanted to follow its progress and stuck to it (couldn't game but thats ok), only ~3-6 months later there was a usuable driver for desktop and better on 2D than fglrx (when KMS became default and out of staging).

About 2 years later I got a new laptop with GTX460 (apps on full screen with a second monitor just didn't work, always streched and with xinerama no hw acceleration on the desktop and all the crap), kicked out the card and put in a 6970M which worked out of the box. I can play most games by now and have a fast desktop (apart from wine games even full screen works perfect)...

For the advise to buy Nvidia. I don't sell Linux or Linux Desktop. For people who just want to play games and use their computer like a toaster, use the Nvidia binary driver. At that time probably the better advise.

[archibald]

https://www.google.com/search?q=anim...oid+human+meat

Google doesn't count as a source: a claim was made about steroids in meat causing obesity, therefore the onus is on the proponents of the claim to provide evidence, not on me to sift through Google's search results.

Andrés Carrasco. "GM soy: Sustainable? Responsible?"

Thanks for the report name, I'll take a look soon.

If you call this "FUD", I recommend you to do some serious research.

I wasn't aware of the details either way on this, I was just pointing out that saying "X causes cancer" is FUD *unless* one has a good source to back it up.

[necro-lover]

I know the situation about the seeds -and i don't like it- but then again i think of all the benefits technology -and genetical engineering- gave us.

Your writing prove that you don't know it.
Because the termination technology to kill the fertility of the seeds growing on the genetic engineered plants has nothing to do with the benefits of the genetically engineering.
Sounds crazy and you don't believe this? right? but its the truth.

The point is there are 2 different technologies. and most people don't get the point.

To make a plant stronger and better with genetic is one side but this has nothing to do with the termination technology to kill the fertility of the seeds.

He do not speak about the first part the "Good" part he only speaks about the second part the "BAD" part.
Maybe he is for the "Good" part of the Genetic technologies. but he is against the "BAD" part of the genetic technologies.
And these capitalist company never give away the "Good" part without the the "BAD" part who makes the people addicted to the company.
Its a lie if the people say that the GOOD part is not possible without the BAD part.

Its is possible to make the plant better without the termination technology to kill the fertility of the seeds.
And this was his point but you don't get the point because you are brainwashed.

The solution is simple: make the "termination technology to kill the fertility of the seeds." against the law and kill everyone in dead penalty who makes this happen.

Its so easy just kill the people who try to hurt peoples natural right of using the fertility of the seeds.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic...ion_technology

that’s the BAD part.

[Figueiredo]

Please stop the off-topic discussion and the generalizing BS. I may be an uneducated linux user, but as a biologist, I can only tell you that being against transgenics because of a specific application is the same as being against C++ because somebody used it to write a virus. Technology cannot be bad, only people and how they use it. Please, hate bad people, spare technology.

[Drago]

Please stop the off-topic discussion and the generalizing BS. I may be an uneducated linux user, but as a biologist, I can only tell you that being against transgenics because of a specific application is the same as being against C++ because somebody used it to write a virus. Technology cannot be bad, only people and how they use it. Please, hate bad people, spare technology.

Figueiredo, read carefully next time. All hate is against "Bad" companies seeking profits at any cost. Technology is OK.

[necro-lover]

Please stop the off-topic discussion and the generalizing BS. I may be an uneducated linux user, but as a biologist, I can only tell you that being against transgenics because of a specific application is the same as being against C++ because somebody used it to write a virus. Technology cannot be bad, only people and how they use it. Please, hate bad people, spare technology.

That’s what I said 1 post on top of your post.

To improve a plant to make it stronger and better with transgenegics is not bad.
But the company’s who sell sterilized seeds with terminator technology to make the farmer addicted to there products are bad!
People who want to force the farmer into there copyright system and into a unlimited perfect addiction are bad.

Its like a drug dealer selling you Heroin or give you the first shot heroin for free.

[crazycheese]

That’s what I said 1 post on top of your post.

To improve a plant to make it stronger and better with transgenegics is not bad.
But the company’s who sell sterilized seeds with terminator technology to make the farmer addicted to there products are bad!
People who want to force the farmer into there copyright system and into a unlimited perfect addiction are bad.

Its like a drug dealer selling you Heroin or give you the first shot heroin for free.

You forgot one thing. The direct genetic manipulation, while giving desired results much faster compared to selection, is not stable or predictable.
Because, when using selection, the plant tests it itself - by surviving or not. Several plant generation loops and analysis, and done. This is not the case with direct manipulation.
It takes a LOT of resources to simulate the plant development and calculate the impact. It takes a lot of money and time to run test cases to stabilize the whole changes and iron out even tiny quirks.

Only then direct genetic manipulation is safe.
This is not being done. Instead money making is done - safety does not interest people, they are used to dump wastes without thinking of consequences, like babies peeing in own bed.

This is why genetically modified food possesses danger much beyond the scope of a nuclear meltdown.
Tschernobyl case, with tremendous efforts, was managed.
But you can't manage where genetic damage is driven, you can't control where the bee flies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIJbA5BJFiQ