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Thread: Ten Suggestions For The GNOME Camp

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by devius View Post
    So women can't be assholes? Now that's a discriminatory affirmation :P
    Pretty sure the usage is limited to only describe men?

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartysmart34 View Post
    Is it really that hard to keep a usage concept that actually works with primary and/or mouse only usage? Instead of actually improving usability devs start making fun out of users wishes. Year right. Best thing to do. Maybe that's one of the reasons why so many "free" (equals unpaid) developers loiter in open source projects. If one of our developers would slap a users face with such a comment ("hey retard, is it really that hard to use the friggin keyboard...") he'd be fired within hours. A perfect example for "Why I'm sick of developers mailing lists".
    Free means free as in freedom, not gratis.

    Regarding developer mailing lists: if you'd go to a mailing list I'm admin of, I'd probably have to remove you due to high usage of profanities.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkor View Post
    Pretty sure the usage is limited to only describe men?
    Just because that's the more common use it doesn't mean it's exclusive to men. All the definitions I've seen suggest that it's used to identify a certain type of person. Not necessarily male, so I think women have the right to be assholes as well.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by smartysmart34 View Post
    Is it really that hard to keep a usage concept that actually works with primary and/or mouse only usage? Instead of actually improving usability devs start making fun out of users wishes. Year right. Best thing to do. Maybe that's one of the reasons why so many "free" (equals unpaid) developers loiter in open source projects. If one of our developers would slap a users face with such a comment ("hey retard, is it really that hard to use the friggin keyboard...") he'd be fired within hours. A perfect example for "Why I'm sick of developers mailing lists".


    And it goes on. Making fun out of other peoples usage preferences. Guess what: I'm frequently sitting on the couch with my netbook while eating snacks with one hand and surfing the net or looking something up with the other hand using a touchpad. And I don't want to friggin use keys where there's no sane reason except for a moron developer saying "you shouldn't do that because I think you shouldn't. And therefore I made it cumbersome to do it.".


    Who the fuck decided that Innovation nowadays means making things worse? And when we're done making usability go away we double our efforts to store every rubbish online. Just becasue Apple does it it must be right.
    On another Mailing list they mentioned the other day that playing CD/DVD media physically (by inseting discs in a drive) is too 70s to further support. The moment Linux goes that far I can swith to an OS that actually has more experience in delivering crap. At least the software stack integrates well there.

    Regards,
    Martin
    Thanks for your elaborate response Martin, I really respect your point of view.
    Let us be clear, I don't want to be a douche, laughing at other people just because they think different than me.
    I never was a real Gnome user before Gnome 3, because frankly it didn't met my standards at that time.
    Now, with its last iteration, I finally feel Gnome is going somewhere, integrating smart and innovating technologies, and at the same time allowing me, the user, to express my vision regarding the usability pattern I prefer. Gnome-Shell extensions are great and they can't be matched by the applets Gnome 2 offered, they simply can't.
    With offering a basic base from which I can build upon the way I want Gnome-Shell gives me the functionality I always wanted from a DE - configurability. Now I know that the basic workflow has changed, big buttons instead of small ones, full-screen browsing instead of large-menus browsing, emphasis on search instead of the traditional point-and-click. And I understand that it could be difficult to change the way you operate your machine.

    But think about it for a moment. So many people have embraced GS and Unity (just watch the last episode of LAS - you'll get a better picture)
    Those people might like the new ways in which Gnome-Shell operates. And I'm inclined to believe that the majority of users, accepted, even if not every new feature introduced, and don't want to revert to the old way of doing things. And I'm also inclined to believe that the dissatisfied people are the vocal ones, because they fill alienated by the new direction their desktop has taken.

    That's ok too. Not everybody thinks, feels or acts the same. We have different needs.

    BUT!!!!!!!

    You have to realise that this is not Windows, nor OS X.
    The devs behind OSS Desktops are mostly unpaid. They do software development because they like it and want to do it.
    AND, most importantly, they themselves are the primary user of their development. They take a direction because they want to, because that is the way they feel DE's should be used. About the 'devs don't listen to user argument'...I doesn't stand. Gnome is a community and communities are comprised of groups of people. The design decision must be taken as a result of a discussion, of a mutual consensus. I am not a part of Gnome development community, but I do follow Planet Gnome and I can see from the posts there that discussion is present before committing to a decision.

    As OSS users you have the chance to participate in the process of developing your Desktop either by writing code or sending feature requests.
    You can be against a feature and vocally express your desire.

    What you shouldn't do is pretend you are the sole user of that DE and that your point of view is the only one that matters. That you know better than the actual devs.
    More, when you are asked to state why you dislike so much the new design you come up with statements like: I don't like DE X because I'm too lazy to press a dam keyboard button, my eating habits suffer, or that I lose some precious pixels because of the new panel.

    Just think about how silly those arguments are!!!

    If you don't like the new Gnome-Shell you could always do that clever thing Lefavre did. Fork everything, in fact, fork the hell out of it.
    Create your own Gnome-Shell, because, as always, single man Desktop environments are the way to go!!!

  5. #55
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    Love is in the air...

  6. #56
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    I think the critical mistake with this survey is that it is GNOME centric. If this contained 25% data about other DEs, all of the information would get a whole lot more interesting.

    I'm also willing to put some of my webdev skills to work here and make that survey app happen, its just not something I'd like to be specific to any DE, or even DEs for that matter. I'd like _anyone_: KDE (whole), AmaroK, Gnome, XFCE.... you name it, to be able to hook into an API where they can subscribe users to various feedback channels.

    Lets take the AmaroK example: Categorize it with other "media players - Audio". The AmaroK team submits their own questions for their survey, but the end user sees all questions for media players (general) in addition to questions specific to/submitted by the AmaroK team. The AmaroK team then gets the benefit of feedback based on its media player in relation to other media players.

    THIS is how you do a -survey system-, which is what Felipe was really suggesting (and was ignored) on the GNOME mailing lists... he just didn't have the vision to bring it outside of its original scope.

    Worthwhile?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrinnho View Post
    What you shouldn't do is pretend you are the sole user of that DE and that your point of view is the only one that matters. That you know better than the actual devs.
    More, when you are asked to state why you dislike so much the new design you come up with statements like: I don't like DE X because I'm too lazy to press a dam keyboard button, my eating habits suffer, or that I lose some precious pixels because of the new panel.
    No one sane is talking about reverting completely to the old way of doing things. The point is that Gnome 2 could be efficiently navigated by keyboard-only, keyboard + mouse, or mouse-only. Different people had different preferences, and there was nothing wrong with that. The shell assumes keyboard + mouse, and makes mouse-only very cumbersome (I have not tried keyboard-only). This was a mistake, and people are understandibly annoyed. Again, people don't have a problem with the new way, they just want the old way to work too. If they put more thought into it, I'm sure the devs could come up with better support for mouse-only.

    And yes, belittling people for having slightly different computer use preferences qualifies as douche behavior. I personally think it's silly to type app names in order to start them, but I don't spend my time bashing those who prefer to do so.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazetsukai View Post
    THIS is how you do a -survey system-, which is what Felipe was really suggesting (and was ignored) on the GNOME mailing lists... he just didn't have the vision to bring it outside of its original scope.
    Felipe was not ignored on GNOME mailing lists. He got loads and loads of feedback, probably too overwhelming. He then started ignoring feedback, and as a result nobody wanted to spend effort on it.

    The difficulty was partly that e.g. we feared that any response would be 1) not accurately represent GNOME users (e.g. the million+ Spanish Extremadura users) and 2) that the outcome might be unusable, thus spewing more 'GNOME doesn't listen to users'.

    I don't think the short list is very helpful for a developer (which I am not btw).

  9. #59

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    Adrinnho, thank you for not taking my post personal and thank you for the reply. It makes your thoughts clearer to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrinnho View Post
    And I understand that it could be difficult to change the way you operate your machine.
    Well, yes. My problem is that - based on past experience - I expect a tile based DE (Metro anyone?) in Linux by 2014 the latest. Not because it makes sense. Not because it is good usability. Just because "It's the way one does DEs nowadays". And it makes me angry because I didn't invest in a 27+'' TFT to have office apps in fullscreen. Oh wait, there is an option to have a fixed split by 1/3rd vs. 2/3rds. Hightech. And there is simply NO ONE out there who actually says "Wait guys. Does it make sense? Do we need the same look and feel for Tablets, Smartphones AND Desktops? Or are the usecases and the requirements different?" In the past Linux to me allways meant "the practical alternative which is customizable to my personal need". And Unity just isn't anymore. Gnome - to be honest - never was. And I don't want to change the way I do things just because a developer thinks he knows how i should do stuff. That's why I ended up with KDE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adrinnho View Post
    But think about it for a moment. So many people have embraced GS and Unity (just watch the last episode of LAS - you'll get a better picture)
    Those people might like the new ways in which Gnome-Shell operates. And I'm inclined to believe that the majority of users, accepted, even if not every new feature introduced, and don't want to revert to the old way of doing things.
    That's ok too. Not everybody thinks, feels or acts the same. We have different needs.
    But I (for example) have different needs depending on what I do. I want a "Mouse only" DE für "Onehanded surfing while doing something else besides". And I may even cope with some sort of keyboard involvement when I'm sitting on my workstation doing things "fulltime" and "all hands involved" ;-).
    But what is even more important: I do not want to have different DEs just because of these two usecases. And that's a pain in the ass.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adrinnho View Post
    AND, most importantly, they themselves are the primary user of their development. They take a direction because they want to, because that is the way they feel DE's should be used.
    And that's the reason why - in the desktop area - the number of Linux users more or less correlates directly to the amount of developers involved. Developers are the users. If you are fine with that and don't have any ambition in bringing Linux to end users PCs. Fine. Go for it. If you want Users to use Linux, change the attitude regarding their needs.
    Interesting enough, Linux only really works where there is a customer focused company taking their customers serious. Generally Smartphone manufacturers and producers of other embedded system, that hide the nature of linux and the developer community from their customers. And yes, in these cases it makes perfect sense to cut it down to what the device should do. But that's not necessarily true for a desktop pc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrinnho View Post
    More, when you are asked to state why you dislike so much the new design you come up with statements like: I don't like DE X because I'm too lazy to press a dam keyboard button, my eating habits suffer, or that I lose some precious pixels because of the new panel.
    Just think about how silly those arguments are!!!
    They're not silly. They are verbal expressions of what users want. One use case can be: I want to be able to navigate on my desktop without having to use a keyboard (searching a program name by typing its name DOES require knowledge as to what is installed and whats the name). When I'm at someone else's machine I just want to navigate the menu and see what's on that machine. Telling me that is silly disqualifies the person taking requirements. I'll invest zero energy in trying to convince. I'll just use something more up my alley and let them play with themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrinnho View Post
    If you don't like the new Gnome-Shell you could always do that clever thing Lefavre did. Fork everything, in fact, fork the hell out of it.
    Create your own Gnome-Shell, because, as always, single man Desktop environments are the way to go!!!
    Forking is killing open source. It does not lead to "single mans desktop" meaning one user per desktop, it leads to "single developer projects" and that just doesn't cut it. And to be precise on that one: It is NOT about choice. I'd rather have no choice but ONE application that actually works - instead of 10 choices with 10 different major issues. Just one example out of many: There's KMail. There's Thunderbird. There's Evolution. And there's more. But is there ONE real alternative to Outlook that actually works and is NOT Webbased requiring the setup of a groupware server? No.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want to convince you of something. I just realise that many of the Linux-Projects do go down the wrong track - my opinion. Maybe I'll just stop upgrading and keep the old stuff. Vintage is cool anyway.

    Regards,
    Martin

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by bkor View Post
    Regarding developer mailing lists: if you'd go to a mailing list I'm admin of, I'd probably have to remove you due to high usage of profanities.
    Do as you like.

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