Why Mono Is Desirable For Linux

[gens]

Yeah, and know what else is open source? Anything released under an open source license. Including, say, the contents of github.com/mono

open source implementation of a patent is guess what...

MS sued for a long filename implementation, why you think they wont sue for anything when/if C# gets popular (starts making money for some1)

game devs dont need a magic programing language, they need a good SDK based on a good engine(ogre?) with a good physics engine(bullet?) and some glue and ducktape for mechanics(python or whatever?)

and dont talk about java and minecraft, im sure the guy lost a lot of hair trying to make it run good

[lapis]

Not very coherent, is it?

Mono is, absolutely, an alternative to Microsoft.NET. By definition, all implementations of ECMA334/335 are alternatives to each other. And, yes, that means promotion of the base spec, the same way a plethora of Python or Ruby implementations promotes Python or Ruby in general.



As we went over last time, and you pretended not to read, the .NET API and C# language are controlled by the following:

• Eiffel Software
• Kahu Research
• Microsoft Corporation
• Novell Corporation
• Twin Roots
• Borland
• Fujitsu Software Corporation
• Hewlett-Packard
• Intel Corporation
• IBM Corporation
• IT University of Copenhagen
• Jagger Software Ltd.
• Monash University
• Netscape
• Phone.Com
• Plum Hall
• Sun Microsystems
• ActiveState
• CSK Corp.
• Jaggersoft (UK)
• Mountain View Compiler
• Pixo
• University of Canterbury (NZ)

Note, in particular, that most of these entries don't actually say "Microsoft". In fact, only one does: the one marked "Microsoft"

And, as we went over last time, notice that the company behind your beloved Eiffel is in fact one of the entities behind .NET



Yeah, and know what else is open source? Anything released under an open source license. Including, say, the contents of github.com/mono

Microsoft controls the main .NET implementation.Microsoft uses more than an ecma standard. It's not good to use a api standard controlled mainly by microsoft .This is not good to be a default language for linux.Linux does not need this.Using .net for linux helps microsoft a lot.


Mono is not capable to compete against microsoft .net for windows.People always use Ms.net than Mono for windows. Mono only helps spread .net on linux .Does not help to promote an alternative to microsoft .net for windows user.Mono is not a independent entity.Mono follows microsoft because everyone uses ms .net as standard.Mono needs to follow .net standard ,because everyone uses microsoft.


Mono trolls like jo shields(directhex) (more or less 4-5 years on trolling since 2008),uses terms like "conspiracy theorists" ,"haters" ,"freetards" and other.

[RealNC]

Novel needed a written agreement from Microsoft, promising that they won't sue them or their users over Mono.

Does everyone here have such a written agreement from MS? If not, what makes you think MS won't put a lawsuit up your ass?

[directhex]

open source implementation of a patent is guess what...

... open source. Unless you're saying that, for example, the Linux kernel is not open source because it violates some patents?

MS sued for a long filename implementation, why you think they wont sue for anything when/if C# gets popular (starts making money for some1)

Because that would go against their interests, and their interests are more important than shaking their fists over dubious patents.

Again, Sony are their biggest rivals in the gaming space. Billions at stake. Sony are betting a LOT on the Playstation Mobile SDK, for Vita and Android - and that's Mono. If anyone's a target, Sony are the target. You're assuming that 1) Sony's army of lawyers knows less about patents than you do, 2) that you've done more detailed risk analyses than they have.

If you think Sony would have put the resources they have into PSM without spending a *lot* of lawyer time looking at the patent question, then you're incredibly naive.

game devs dont need a magic programing language, they need a good SDK based on a good engine(ogre?) with a good physics engine(bullet?) and some glue and ducktape for mechanics(python or whatever?)

True. Who's shipping that integrated environment, exactly? Because from where I'm sat, the world's most popular mobile game engine is Mono-based Unity3D, and one of the world's biggest gaming companies is betting the farm on their new Mono-based game development environment for handheld systems.

and dont talk about java and minecraft, im sure the guy lost a lot of hair trying to make it run good

I'm sure he did. Voxel engines are hard work.

[directhex]

Novel needed a written agreement from Microsoft, promising that they won't sue them or their users over Mono.

Does everyone here have such a written agreement from MS? If not, what makes you think MS won't put a lawsuit up your ass?

Novell's old agreement with Microsoft covered the entire default install of SUSE Linux Enterprise. Mono was not named by name once in that document, and was not singled out as in any way different from, say, X.org

Only twisted, obsessive minds have corrupted it into meaning only stuff they hate and not stuff they love.

[directhex]

Microsoft controls the main .NET implementation.Microsoft uses more than an ecma standard. It's not good to use a api standard controlled mainly by microsoft .This is not good to be a default language for linux.Linux does not need this.Using .net for linux helps microsoft a lot.

"default language"? And "helps microsoft a lot" how precisely?

Mono is not capable to compete against microsoft .net for windows.People always use Ms.net than Mono for windows.

Unless they're EA, selling millions of Mono-based The Sims 3 for Windows.

Mono only helps spread .net on linux

Or Mac, or Android, or OSX, or Solaris, or BSD.

Does not help to promote an alternative to microsoft .net for windows user.

It promotes alternative OSes to Windows for previously Windows-only developers. You'd have thought that people on this forum would like more Linux users and Linux apps, but hey, I forgot about the twisted love/hate relationship with Microsoft.

Mono is not a independent entity.Mono follows microsoft because everyone uses ms .net as standard.Mono needs to follow .net standard ,because everyone uses microsoft.

So? Jython follows Python too.

Mono trolls like jo shields(directhex) (more or less 4-5 years on trolling since 2008),uses terms like "conspiracy theorists" ,"haters" ,"freetards" and other.

None of those terms have ever stopped being accurate.

[RealNC]

Novell's old agreement with Microsoft covered the entire default install of SUSE Linux Enterprise. Mono was not named by name once in that document, and was not singled out as in any way different from, say, X.org

Only twisted, obsessive minds have corrupted it into meaning only stuff they hate and not stuff they love.

I doubt it.

[directhex]

I doubt it.

Have you ever actually read the documents in question? Or simply pretended to know what you're talking about, in order to attack Free Software you don't like? Hint

[lapis]

"default language"? And "helps microsoft a lot" how precisely?



Unless they're EA, selling millions of Mono-based The Sims 3 for Windows.



Or Mac, or Android, or OSX, or Solaris, or BSD.



It promotes alternative OSes to Windows for previously Windows-only developers. You'd have thought that people on this forum would like more Linux users and Linux apps, but hey, I forgot about the twisted love/hate relationship with Microsoft.



So? Jython follows Python too.



None of those terms have ever stopped being accurate.

It's not hate(a common troll attack.Please call me "mono hater and conspiracy theorist") .It's common sense.Mono should focus on porting .net windows-only apps for cross platform .net apps.Mono should not promote .net as a "wonderful" tool.

Using an api controlled by microsoft gives more money/control opportunity for microsoft and the abuse of patents.

The sims ? Work on windows only.I don t see real development to compete against microsoft .net.

Mac ,android are proprietary versions.And it helps to promote .net on non supported microsoft platforms..

Python is a open standard and cross platform.

[elanthis]

For what it's worth:


C# is used a buttload in almost every game company I know.

Mainly for tools. Not the game itself, but all the myriad of external utilities, editors, content processors, etc. etc. that are needed.

Why?

They're tons easier to write in C# than in C++, Python, etc. Better than C++ because C++ is a high-speed, low-level language with no standard library to speak of and its advantages mostly only apply to very performance-sensitive core framework code. Better than Python because languages like Python are loosy-goosy free-for-all scripting languages that fall apart in real-world usage when you start to top 5-digit code-line counts. Better than Java because Java has long since stopped innovating and improving compared to the constant rate of improvement in .NET/C# (the new parallel processing library, C# async methods, generic variance, LINQ, CodeDOM, etc.). Better than all of them because Microsoft has invested a crapload of money into the .NET standard library, which is comprehensive, well-designed, easy to use, and fully featured, and also because Microsoft invested craploads into tools that go far beyond what even Java offers (e.g., not only good code editing, but amazing profilers, debuggers, analysis tools, deployment tools, documentation and codegen tools, OS integration tools, graphics integration tools, COM-interop tools, and specialized tools for specialized parts of the stdlib).

For games themselves (not just the tools), C# is obviously very common in Unity3D games (100% usage rate, in fact, since Unity3D itself is partially written in C#), thanks to Mono. It's used for a lot of small indie XNA (e.g. MonoGame) games. Otherwise, it's not used too often. Mostly because it offers few advantages for core game engine code that don't come with significant overhead (e.g. C# events are amazingly useful, but for the use cases in a core engine you can accept some feature limitations that result in significant time and memory efficiency gains), and for high-level scripting it turns out that languages like Lua, Python, ECMAScript, etc. are generally considered superior because they focus on quick-and-dirty ease of use rather than architectural correctness.

Although of course the really high end engines use custom scripting languages because none of the general purpose ones can attain the level of efficiency (primarily _memory_ efficiency, which is where even C# falls flat for games) necessary. Lua, Python, etc. all for instance lack a native value SIMD type, and require boxing things far more often than should be necessary, resulting in lots of unnecessary memory allocations (bad news for console developers) and GC pressure (bad news for real-time games) and the general pain in the ass problems caused by having things that logically should be value types instead treated as reference types (a 4-component floating-point SIMD vector for instance is used identically to a regular float and is almost more common in a game, but the only way to get a vec4 is as a reference type in every popular general-purpose language except for C, C++, and C#). AngelScript is an attempt to be a script language just for games, but it's very rarely used due to its incomplete and uncertain state. Also, it's generally just easier if a script languages internal object model exactly matches the one used in the rest of the engine, so going the custom route can save a lot of time down the road.

I have yet to personally meet a programmer who's actually _used_ C# and not fallen in love with it, and I've only run into a precious few on the Interwebz who are experienced C# devs (especially ones who've used it since C# 2.0 or later) and hated it. Sure, there's still plenty of bitching to be heard -- no language is perfect -- but it's a hell of a lot closer to perfect for most general purpose tasks than anything else commonly available right now. It's the Big Application counter-part to the Small Application fan favorite Python. And hey, with IronPython, you can use both at the same time!