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Thread: Why Mono Is Desirable For Linux

  1. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    I am not completely against Xamarin. I haven't yet tried to do this so I can't say if it works but in theory you should be able to convert android java code to C# with IKVM.NET and then use MonoTouch and MonoAndroid and port your app work on ios and make it on android run faster (because you said that .Net is faster because of the better Jit).
    IKVM.NET doesn't convert Java code to C#, it converts Java bytecode to MSIL.

    Microsoft used to have a free tool called JLCA which did a source-level conversion, though.

    But now that you mention it, here is Xamarin's port of Android from Java to C# (using a tool called Sharpen), whose performance is orders of magnitude faster than Dalvik: http://blog.xamarin.com/2012/05/01/android-in-c-sharp/

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    I am not completely against Xamarin. I haven't yet tried to do this so I can't say if it works but in theory you should be able to convert android java code to C# with IKVM.NET and then use MonoTouch and MonoAndroid and port your app work on ios and make it on android run faster (because you said that .Net is faster because of the better Jit).
    Edited: directhex duplicate my thoughts. So there is no point to repeat it.
    Just the link to results: http://tirania.org/s/71de890b.png
    Last edited by ciplogic; 09-24-2012 at 09:00 AM.

  3. #273
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    Why directhex is instantly labelled a shill:

    In one sentence:
    Of course I see why people are apprehensive about Microsoft.
    In another:
    I'm saying blind hatred against Microsoft in all cases regardless of context is moronic.
    Quite a few, very good and justifiable reasons to hate Microsoft are very much rooted in development EEE and lockin. Just what topic are we on right now?

    Anything not running Windows/.NET. You're either using APIs that happen to be implemented in Mono, or you're coding against .NET and only caring about Windows.
    So, shock horror, do the former.
    You're ignoring the real problem in that sentence. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you either.

    It is not in Microsoft's best interest for developers to more easily deploy to other platforms. The conflict of interest here is clear. Is it really all that unreasonable for developers to be wary of this?
    Who cares what is or is not in Microsoft's best interests?
    My God, can you really, truly not see what I'm implying here?

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
    So what is the directly comparable scenario for your "fool me once" here?
    Or even here!?!

    THIS IS WHY you are a shill.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazetsukai View Post
    Why directhex is instantly labelled a shill:

    In one sentence:

    In another:

    Quite a few, very good and justifiable reasons to hate Microsoft are very much rooted in development EEE and lockin. Just what topic are we on right now?
    Is Linus Torvalds a Microsoft shill? I quote:
    You can't tell that he's talking about YOU, kazetsukai, when he says "Microsoft hatred is a disease"?

    You're ignoring the real problem in that sentence. I shouldn't have to spell it out for you either.
    But you're doing the Fox News thing, making accusations by inference. If you actually believed your statements, you'd be able to make your arguments articulately and plainly. It's not my job to try and guestimate what worst-case nonsense you're trying to claim, because as soon as I aim at that theoretical position, you'll attack me for missing your point.

    So make your point in plain English, not with nudges and winks.

    My God, can you really, truly not see what I'm implying here?
    That you're paranoid and obsessed?

    Or even here!?!
    Stop implying and try stating.

    If your arguments could stand up to cursory examination, you wouldn't be so terrified about making them clearly.

    THIS IS WHY you are a shill.
    I don't think you even know what that word means.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazetsukai View Post
    (...) very good and justifiable reasons to hate Microsoft are very much rooted in development EEE and lockin.
    EEE is in my best judgement: someone starts a technology, second company adopts it, and implement a big chunk of the first company technology and some extra proprietary bits that do basically locks you in.
    If you mean this EEE (and Wikipedia seems to say so), it seems to me that in equal measure Mono is EEE as is .Net. Can you write iOS applications in .Net? Or Linux ones for that matter. Can you call portable code, just by writing an xml in the current folder a new (native) DLL/SO mapping? Mono did it at least 6 years before Microsoft. So you could write code that works on .Net and works on Mono, with one XML markup, but you could write it just in a Mono only manner.
    Claim (that is assumed to be true): EEE is first person does a technology, and the second does an incomplete with not-so-compatible extensions that lead to lockin.
    Who does the lockin, and if you are trained in basic logic (like the one that you do it at school at age of 15), please explain to me how .Net is a lockin for Mono users. Also at least for my basic satisfaction, may you describe how you are locked in if you write code that works with Gtk#/Mono (the regular way you'll likely write your code anyway), or if you use Asp.NET MVC3/4, Entity, DLR, IronRuby (or IronPython)?
    Last edited by ciplogic; 09-24-2012 at 01:16 PM.

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    You can't tell that he's talking about YOU, kazetsukai, when he says "Microsoft hatred is a disease"?
    He is talking about the natural human behavior of segregation and "us vs them". You own an Xbox, PS3 or Wii. If you own multiple, you like one the best and thus you're a part of that "camp" (either by being excluded from the opposing "camps" or by being included in a specific "camp"). Linus Torvalds is not saying "bury the hatchet" and he doesn't claim it isn't justified- he's saying that in many cases it is just out of control. Don't try to twist it. Perhaps he is talking about me, perhaps he isn't. Not your or my place to judge.

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    But you're doing the Fox News thing, making accusations by inference. If you actually believed your statements, you'd be able to make your arguments articulately and plainly. It's not my job to try and guestimate what worst-case nonsense you're trying to claim, because as soon as I aim at that theoretical position, you'll attack me for missing your point.
    I'm attacking you for purposefully evading the point, because the points are there and they are obvious. If you didn't get the points, you'd ask for clarification rather than being ridiculing and dismissive.

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    So make your point in plain English, not with nudges and winks.
    It it no more my job to point out the elephant in the room to you than it is your job to guestimate.

    Lets boil it down from the opposing faction's view:
    • Many Linux (developers,users) are wary of the Mono product.
    • They are so because of its relationship with Microsoft (being developed/licensed in part by).
    • They are wary of Microsoft because of its previous actions
    • This is because a portion of Microsoft's actions have caused harm to competition and the community.
    • Microsoft continues to take actions that can cause harm.
    • Microsoft tries to further harm by attacking the freedoms of the user and the developer.


    The community is not insane. It is not paranoid. We are not "obsessed". We're wary and for very good reasons (of which are littered all over this thread, not to mention the internet in whole).

    I, as a user and developer, am wary of Microsoft related technologies. I boycott them. I purchased anything related to them since at least 2004. I want choice in the desktop OS space. And not the joke/farce of a choice which is Mac vs PC. I want to retain the freedoms that we've considered fundamental since the inception of the internet. I don't want big brother watching everything I do, I don't want DRM telling me what I can or can't do with my data, and I don't want companies dictating what I can do with my hardware. I'm voting against all of this with my wallet, my technology choices, and career. That's my choice and not one for you, or anyone to criticize.

    But you simultaneously need to realize and recognize, just as I have... that Microsoft, and NOONE ELSE, has raised an army of people _just like me_. Developers, users, technology experts. Implementers, sysadmins, network admins. PEOPLE, who adamantly refuse to have anything to do with them. And they('ve) gather(ed) into start-ups, (have) become profitable organizations, and innovators in this space. They're not insane, they're passionate and are voting against the tyranny we've put up with for years.

    For some like me, I grew up not even aware of alternatives, until I dug them up and got myself started. And its a real shame for so many to not be even made aware, let alone exposed to these technologies from younger ages. So naturally you ask "Why?". The answer is always, unfortunately, not a good one. It usually boils down to corporate greed or ignorance that has been carefully orchestrated by a large entity.

    Quote Originally Posted by directhex View Post
    I don't think you even know what that word means.
    I think you haven't tried to understand where the people you're talking to come from. We started out as kids, just like you, grew up, learned, and made decisions. And a decision many of us here have made is to use and try to further alternatives to the technologies everyone is force fed through education (both mandatory and institutional), advertising and other corporate agenda. You're free to your opinions, but I doubt you can dismiss the career choices of one as paranoia when there's an army of people doing the exact same thing independently.
    Last edited by kazetsukai; 09-24-2012 at 01:32 PM.

  7. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    ...
    First, could you please use paragraphs, or some kind of spacing to section your post by argument/topic/whatever? Your post is a headache to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciplogic View Post
    .....please explain to me how .Net is a lockin for Mono users.
    I think you misunderstand. Mono/.NET has the clear opportunity for EEE. Example: developer A writes code in C# against Mono. Microsoft implements new functionality Z in .NET and patents said functionality, granting use to users of the .NET framework, but not to the Mono crowd. Functionality Z is really useful to developer A... What does he do? Nothing perhaps. But what happens when this scenario repeats itself endlessly?

    There is the potential for Microsoft to take their established standard (C#), extend it, and license extensions in a way that steers developers towards Windows or towards licensing their software with Microsoft (effectively a tax). I think EET (Embrace, Extend, Tax) is more appropriate than EEE (Embrace, Extend, Extinguish), but it basically equals hell for the developer.

    Its really hard to understand why the legal systems of the world support giving a slice of the cake to an entity that is at best distantly creditable for the creation of software (eg. Android).

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by kazetsukai View Post
    He is talking about the natural human behavior of segregation and "us vs them". You own an Xbox, PS3 or Wii. If you own multiple, you like one the best and thus you're a part of that "camp" (either by being excluded from the opposing "camps" or by being included in a specific "camp"). Linus Torvalds is not saying "bury the hatchet" and he doesn't claim it isn't justified- he's saying that in many cases it is just out of control. Don't try to twist it. Perhaps he is talking about me, perhaps he isn't. Not your or my place to judge.
    Er, what? How on earth did you infer that from his language? I don't think there's even a single word in his statement that aligns with your interpretation.

    I'm attacking you for purposefully evading the point, because the points are there and they are obvious. If you didn't get the points, you'd ask for clarification rather than being ridiculing and dismissive.
    Oh? Oh really? Let's take an example of your happiness to clarify points, shall we?

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...
    So what is the directly comparable scenario for your "fool me once" here?
    Or even here!?!

    THIS IS WHY you are a shill.
    You suggest that I'm the evasive one, and you'd love to clarify points? Liar.

    It it no more my job to point out the elephant in the room to you than it is your job to guestimate.
    We disagree on the elephant and its size. That's the key issue.

    Lets boil it down from the opposing faction's view:
    • Many Linux (developers,users) are wary of the Mono product.
    Correct.

    • They are so because of its relationship with Microsoft (being developed/licensed in part by).
    I don't know where you got "licensed by", but sure, whatever, that seems more or less right.

    • They are wary of Microsoft because of its previous actions
    Indeed they are.

    • This is because a portion of Microsoft's actions have caused harm to competition and the community.
    Sure. I paid for BeOS, y'know.

    • Microsoft continues to take actions that can cause harm.
    A portion of Microsoft does, sure. Other portions are pretty much neutral, others are largely positive. See previous comment regarding "broad strokes" and "large companies".

    • Microsoft tries to further harm by attacking the freedoms of the user and the developer.
    See above - some portions of the company are clearly bad, some are neutral, others are positive. Clearly there is continued harm from their patent bullshit in the mobile space, although pretty much everyone is engaged in this pettiness. Since you seem to delight in guessing games, I'm going to guess that your "attacking the freedoms of the developer" is a comment on... dice roll... the lack of C++ development on Windows Phone 7. Did I guess right? And the anti-user part is... dice roll... the DRM on Xbox 360 discs. How'd I do?

    The community is not insane. It is not paranoid. We are not "obsessed". We're wary and for very good reasons (of which are littered all over this thread, not to mention the internet in whole).
    I never said the "community" was obsessed. Just a select vocal few. Like you. For the vast majority? They just don't give a shit. They contribute to and use Free Software because they believe that Free Software is a better way to do things. They don't obsess about being anti-Microsoft. That's not the goal, or even an afterthought. It's an irrelevance.

    I, as a user and developer, am wary of Microsoft related technologies. I boycott them.
    Liar.

    You use Microsoft technology daily. You use it to access this very forum. Your cognitive dissonance just allows you to pretend that Microsoft are all-powerful in some areas, and have no influence in others.

    How about we take a little trip to the list of technologies which Microsoft have contributed to and claim some possible patents over. Ever heard of IPv6? IPv4? Ping? PPP? POP3? DHCP? TLS? LDAP? HTTP? SSL? USB?

    You want to say you distrust Microsoft? That's fine. There is a logically consistent route to that. But claiming you don't use software attributable to Microsoft on a daily basis? That's just plain fantasy.

    I purchased anything related to them since at least 2004. I want choice in the desktop OS space. And not the joke/farce of a choice which is Mac vs PC. I want to retain the freedoms that we've considered fundamental since the inception of the internet. I don't want big brother watching everything I do, I don't want DRM telling me what I can or can't do with my data, and I don't want companies dictating what I can do with my hardware. I'm voting against all of this with my wallet, my technology choices, and career. That's my choice and not one for you, or anyone to criticize.
    Not sure what any of that actually has to do with attacking the Mono project, though. You know it's Free Software, right?

    But you simultaneously need to realize and recognize, just as I have... that Microsoft, and NOONE ELSE, has raised an army of people _just like me_. Developers, users, technology experts. Implementers, sysadmins, network admins. PEOPLE, who adamantly refuse to have anything to do with them. And they('ve) gather(ed) into start-ups, (have) become profitable organizations, and innovators in this space. They're not insane, they're passionate and are voting against the tyranny we've put up with for years.
    Tyranny?



    For some like me, I grew up not even aware of alternatives, until I dug them up and got myself started. And its a real shame for so many to not be even made aware, let alone exposed to these technologies from younger ages. So naturally you ask "Why?". The answer is always, unfortunately, not a good one. It usually boils down to corporate greed or ignorance that has been carefully orchestrated by a large entity.
    I'm wondering to what extent the difference in attitude can be tied to exposure to the diverse home computer revolution of the 1980s.

    I think you haven't tried to understand where the people you're talking to come from. We started out as kids, just like you, grew up, learned, and made decisions. And a decision many of us here have made is to use and try to further alternatives to the technologies everyone is force fed through education (both mandatory and institutional), advertising and other corporate agenda. You're free to your opinions, but I doubt you can dismiss the career choices of one as paranoia when there's an army of people doing the exact same thing independently.
    You realise my entire professional career has been with Free Software - specifically on Linux - right? I spent six years in HPC. Know what Microsoft is in clustering? A running joke. The only way Microsoft managed to get anyone to run a Windows cluster was by paying for the OS. And the hardware. And the staff. And the electricity. And various other freebies as a sweetener.

  9. #279
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    What a great thread! To spare lurkers the time to read thgrough almost 30 pages of trolling I'd like to give a summary on what has been established so far:


    • Mono is bad because it implements Microsoft technologies.
    • Samba is good because it implements Microsoft technologies.
    • LibreOffice is good because it implements Microsoft file formats.
    • C# ist not for real programmers because it makes developing way too easy and encourages laziness. Real programmers should use Python or Java instead.
    • Developers who need a C# like language should use Java. By doing that they don't support Microsoft's evil business practises.
    • There are two types of Linux users. Those who use Linux because they like Linux and those who use Linux because they hate Microsoft.
    Last edited by Tinitus; 09-24-2012 at 03:03 PM.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinitus View Post
    What a great thread! To spare lurkers the time to read thgrough almost 30 pages of trolling I'd like to give a summary on what has been established so far:


    • Mono is bad because it implements Microsoft technologies.
    • Samba is good because it implements Microsoft technologies.
    • LibreOffice is good because it implements Microsoft file formats.
    • C# ist not for real programmers because it makes developing way too easy and encourages laziness. Real programmers should use Python or Java instead.
    • Developers who need a C# like language should use Java. By doing that they don't support Microsoft's evil business practises.
    • There are two types of Linux users. Those who use Linux because they like Linux and those who use Linux because they hate Microsoft.
    Welcome to the forums! It's interesting that your grammar and writing style are so similar to ciplogic's... Come to think of it, ciplogic's isn't that different than directhex, but it's dissimilar enough that they probably aren't the same person, they just work together and share a flat together... Or maybe they're just lovers...

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