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Thread: Why Mono Is Desirable For Linux

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by droidhacker View Post
    Wow, total pile of crap.
    Mono is terrible. Not primarily because of legal threats. Because it has a highly destructive side-effect.
    When a software developer wants to be LAZY, they simply do not implement a non-windoze version. They say instead "we only support gaybuttfu*kingbalmer, if you wanna get with a girl, you can always try wine or mono, otherwise bend over and take it." Now if you happen to be gay and like taking it up the arse, power to you, this solution may satisfy you. For everyone else though, it means that software just doesn't work the way that satisfies you, and software developers are in no way motivated to actually support your preferred paltform.
    Gay slurs? That's a fascinating insight into what kind of person you are.

    And it's the choice of developers as to which OSes they want to support. Some developers use C and support multiple platforms. Some use C++. Some use Java. Some use C#. It's their choice what to use, and their choice as to what to support, not yours.

    The ideal solution to this problem, is the use of cross-platform development tools. This makes support of all the different platforms... as easy as supporting ONLY ONE.

    EVERY SINGLE ARGUMENT I've ever seen in support of MONO has boiled down to either LAZYNESS or IGNORANCE. Mono solves NEITHER.

    The ONLY thing that solves BOTH is FORCING software developers to actually support more than balmer.
    So using cross-platform tools is the best option, and using cross-platform .NET is lazy and ignorant. Your cognitive dissonance can't track arguments between more than one line?

    Oh, and I argue with list of points made at top of article;
    - Oracle was attacking Android's Java for copyright issues (no patents, sic!)
    **** THEY LOST!!!!!
    Wrong. Oracle sued over seven patents in addition to the copyright claims:

    • 6,125,447 - Protection Domains To Provide Security In A Computer System
    • 6,192,476 - Controlling Access To A Resource
    • 5,966,702 - Method And Apparatus For Preprocessing And Packaging Class Files
    • 7,426,720 - System And Method For Dynamic Preloading Of Classes Through Memory Space Cloning Of A Master Runtime System Process
    • RE38,104 - Method And Apparatus For Resolving Data References In Generate Code
    • 6,910,205 - Interpreting Functions Utilizing A Hybrid Of Virtual And Native Machine Instructions
    • 6,061,520 - Method And System for Performing Static Initialization


    They did, however, lose.


    - Apple attacked Android too, an open platform

    No, Apple attacked SAMSUNG over features/characteristics added BY SAMSUNG, in particular, "rectangle with rounded corners" -- does not apply to Android, only Samsung.
    Correct. Mostly. There are a small number of patents Apple sued Samsung over which are part of the base Android OS. These can be quickly worked around.

    - Microsoft attacked TomTom for using extFat format in their GPS devices
    Serves tomtom right for being retarded.
    Wrong. FAT32 extended file name support. They were sued for supporting and using filenames longer than the old 8.3 format (i.e. FILENAME.FOO). This layer is commonly referred to as "VFAT", and is patented by Microsoft.

    Notably, FAT32 is the mandatory filesystem used on Secure Digital High Capacity memory cards. If TomTom had stuck to 8.3 filenames on their SD cards, they wouldn't have been at risk under this specific set of patents.

    ExtFat doesn't exist. If you mean exFAT, then no, that wasn't the filesystem causing issues (although that filesystem is patented).

    Yes, this point actually DOES support "MONO SUCKS"
    Except it doesn't. It's unrelated.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateli View Post
    Nope. These thing are not all the same thing. COM is an object sharing model, OLE is a COM application for sharing more specific object. DCOM is a network-transparent proxy for COM. ActiveX is a specification for sharing graphical components over OLE.

    .NET does not even officially support COM/OLE/ActiveX.... so no.

    .NET assemblies is intended to REPLACE COM/OLE/ActiveX because those are generally a bloody mess that only Don Box fully understand.

    Yes there are a lot of windows and office components that still are stuck in COM but all new development are focused on .NET assemblies.

    Personally I think it was wrong of Microsoft to make WinRT native. They should have reused .NET Micro Framework and make something entirely based on .NET.

    Of course moving all code to .NET means killing Windows, which becomes a problem for redmond...
    Comme ci, comme ca.

    It's layers on top of layers, with some features added at each layer.

    When I say .NET is a wrapper, I mean MS has not re-written Windows or it's major apps AFAICT to replace the COM/DCOM/ActiveX heritage - mostly MS has obscured that heritage with .NET.

    I did not mean to imply that .NET is a species of ActiveX.

    If you write a native C+ app on Windows all that COM/DCOM/ActiveX stuff is still there to be used.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateli View Post
    Personally I think it was wrong of Microsoft to make WinRT native. They should have reused .NET Micro Framework and make something entirely based on .NET.
    Micro's got too much missing, IMHO

    But it *is* Free Software, so that's good.

    Of course moving all code to .NET means killing Windows, which becomes a problem for redmond...
    WP7?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    <pedant>
    .NET runs C & C++ code that has been compiled to .NET bytecode.
    </pedant>
    Isn't that GREAT! Using a VM to run a language that was designed to run on bare metal! All the limitations without that pesky performance! Why not just COMPILE IT TO BARE METAL and get the actual performance? The VM buys you NOTHING.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by nadro View Post
    The best choice for a games is C++. Maybe for a small project C# or JAVA are ok, but for more advanced games these langueages are useless. These langs has got too big overhead and this is a waste of memory and CPU (eg worse hit in a cache). It's better do do more advanced physic, AI or sound and other CPU resources give to a graphic driver than waste a lot of resources for a language.
    I do not agree at all. When a C++ coder tries to write C++ code in Java I see all of the problems you describe. I do not see those problems among Java coders that know what they are doing.

    Java loads it entire run-time environment which for SMALL games may be a problem. For more advanced games and application that actually need most of the run-time it is not a problem. Also project Jigsaw (Java 8) will eliminate this.

    Many of the classes in the Java Framework is enterprise grade which means they are failsafe, which means more code and more CPU usage than something that does not care about such thing. There are also many C++ libraries that have this "problem".

    Fortunately game engines for Java do not use the enterprise grade classes but use silent-fail code instead. Not that great if you are dealing with business logic but it makes code faster.

    Your points could have been valued but so far C++ developers have FAILED in proving any of it. Once you guys throw us code that supposedly can not be as fast in Java - Java developers have produced optimized code that are as fast or faster than C++ code.

  6. #66
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    General comments...


    From directhex' post above, patents Oracle sued over, but not directed at directhex:

    6,125,447 - Protection Domains To Provide Security In A Computer System

    Didn't mainframes do this decades ago?

    6,192,476 - Controlling Access To A Resource

    Isn't this in large part the justification for operating yststems in the first place?

    5,966,702 - Method And Apparatus For Preprocessing And Packaging Class Files

    No idea what it means.

    7,426,720 - System And Method For Dynamic Preloading Of Classes Through Memory Space Cloning Of A Master Runtime System Process

    I bet it uses fork() and exec()!

    RE38,104 - Method And Apparatus For Resolving Data References In Generate Code

    I think this is colloquially called a linker.

    6,910,205 - Interpreting Functions Utilizing A Hybrid Of Virtual And Native Machine Instructions

    OMG, mixing instruction sets!

    6,061,520 - Method And System for Performing Static Initialization

    Another such system?


    ---


    Finally, I am getting the giggles because I am participating in a nascent flame war, mostly concerned with Windows APIs and Microsoft strategy, on a BBS that is part of a Linux-specific website!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by frantaylor View Post
    Isn't that GREAT! Using a VM to run a language that was designed to run on bare metal! All the limitations without that pesky performance! Why not just COMPILE IT TO BARE METAL and get the actual performance? The VM buys you NOTHING.
    LOL! Doubtless someone will make just such a system, to optimize the CPU intensive parts of a C# program.

    Java supports same idea I think?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    General comments...


    From directhex' post above, patents Oracle sued over, but not directed at directhex:

    6,125,447 - Protection Domains To Provide Security In A Computer System

    Didn't mainframes do this decades ago?

    6,192,476 - Controlling Access To A Resource

    Isn't this in large part the justification for operating yststems in the first place?

    5,966,702 - Method And Apparatus For Preprocessing And Packaging Class Files

    No idea what it means.

    7,426,720 - System And Method For Dynamic Preloading Of Classes Through Memory Space Cloning Of A Master Runtime System Process

    I bet it uses fork() and exec()!

    RE38,104 - Method And Apparatus For Resolving Data References In Generate Code

    I think this is colloquially called a linker.

    6,910,205 - Interpreting Functions Utilizing A Hybrid Of Virtual And Native Machine Instructions

    OMG, mixing instruction sets!

    6,061,520 - Method And System for Performing Static Initialization

    Another such system?
    Patents are bullshit. Most of your observations are correct.

    Finally, I am getting the giggles because I am participating in a nascent flame war, mostly concerned with Windows APIs and Microsoft strategy, on a BBS that is part of a Linux-specific website!
    Nothing gets Linux forums fired up like the opportunity to shout about how TOTALLY PURE THEY ARE AND THEY'LL NEVER TOUCH EVIL POISON FROM MICRO$HAFT LIKE MONO AND .NET AND SSL AND OH FUCK

    Whether they understand what they're arguing or not.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mateli View Post
    I do not agree at all. When a C++ coder tries to write C++ code in Java I see all of the problems you describe. I do not see those problems among Java coders that know what they are doing.
    I see you are writing in a dialect of English that features the STRAWMAN construct!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    General comments...


    From directhex' post above, patents Oracle sued over, but not directed at directhex:

    6,125,447 - Protection Domains To Provide Security In A Computer System

    Didn't mainframes do this decades ago?

    6,192,476 - Controlling Access To A Resource

    Isn't this in large part the justification for operating yststems in the first place?

    5,966,702 - Method And Apparatus For Preprocessing And Packaging Class Files

    No idea what it means.

    7,426,720 - System And Method For Dynamic Preloading Of Classes Through Memory Space Cloning Of A Master Runtime System Process

    I bet it uses fork() and exec()!

    RE38,104 - Method And Apparatus For Resolving Data References In Generate Code

    I think this is colloquially called a linker.

    6,910,205 - Interpreting Functions Utilizing A Hybrid Of Virtual And Native Machine Instructions

    OMG, mixing instruction sets!

    6,061,520 - Method And System for Performing Static Initialization

    Another such system?


    ---


    Finally, I am getting the giggles because I am participating in a nascent flame war, mostly concerned with Windows APIs and Microsoft strategy, on a BBS that is part of a Linux-specific website!
    Are you asserting that Oracle has used these patents to sue other people, or might it be the case that Oracle is accumulating a war chest for defense? They lost their last attempt to enforce their IP, and even had to pay court costs, so their "scare factor" is gone. Oracle is not going to repeat THAT debacle.

    Lots of companies have lots of patents on lots of stuff. It's whom they choose to sue that's interesting.

    RedHat holds the rights to a whole bunch of software patents, they aren't using them to sue anyone. They use them to discourage other people from suing them.

    On the other hand, Microsoft has sued people for patents that they won't even tell us about. We don't even know when we are infringing, because they won't tell you, EVEN AFTER THEY FILE SUIT AGAINST YOU.
    Last edited by frantaylor; 09-14-2012 at 04:29 PM.

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