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Thread: A Proposal To Fix The Full-Screen Linux Window Mess

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  1. #1
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    Default A Proposal To Fix The Full-Screen Linux Window Mess

    Phoronix: A Proposal To Fix The Full-Screen Linux Window Mess

    Ryan Gordon, the well-known Linux game porter and developer of SDL and other open-source projects, along with Sam Lantinga, another key SDL developer and recent hire for Valve's Linux team, have proposed a window manager change to work out the full-screen X11 window mess...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTIxNDg

  2. #2
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    Typical scenario for me with Gnome3 on Fedora 17 with two monitors:
    1. playing videos is ferfect, full screen on one monitor and e.g. a browser open in the other
    2. wine games (ddo) if full screen:
      • started on the main monitor, it will mirror in full screen on both
      • started on the external monitor, it will full screen only there but the wm on the other monitor is not accessable (Meta-Key still works and if you click something on the other monitor it will leave the game and you cannot go back)
      • the desktop will stay in it's resolution, no worries if the game crashes
    3. linux native games if full screen:
      • started on the main monitor, it will strech in full screen on both
      • if the game crashes, you are stuck with whatever resolution you ran
    4. gnome-rdp to connect to e.g. virt-manager running a vm, full screen on one monitor and works perfect
    Last edited by disi; 10-25-2012 at 09:07 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by disi View Post
    Typical scenario for me with Gnome3 on Fedora 17 with two monitors:
    1. playing videos is ferfect, full screen on one monitor and e.g. a browser open in the other
    2. wine games (ddo) if full screen:
      • started on the main monitor, it will mirror in full screen on both
      • started on the external monitor, it will full screen only there but the wm on the other monitor is not accessable (Meta-Key still works and if you click something on the other monitor it will leave the game and you cannot go back)
      • the desktop will stay in it's resolution, no worries if the game crashes
    3. linux native games if full screen:
      • started on the main monitor, it will strech in full screen on both
      • if the game crashes, you are stuck with whatever resolution you ran
    4. gnome-rdp to connect to e.g. virt-manager running a vm, full screen on one monitor and works perfect
    This sounds like a merged framebuffer setup.
    Ever tried a zaphod setup. i.e. separate screens?
    I do prefer this configuration.

    Downsides are:


    • You can't drag windows from one screen to other anymore.
    • Merged big-screen output (typically flight simulator games, etc...) is typically not available anymore.
    • Glamor (generic 2D acceleration via OpenGL) does not yet support this configuration (not sure if this will change).
    • I've got the feeling that X developers don't really like zaphod configurations for some reasons.


    Apart from that, everything else is far better imho.

  4. #4
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    I wonder why Gräßlin forgot that quite a few users like to use laptops with external screens and are thus constantly changing resolution anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    This sounds like a merged framebuffer setup.
    Ever tried a zaphod setup. i.e. separate screens?
    I do prefer this configuration.

    Downsides are:


    • You can't drag windows from one screen to other anymore.
    • Merged big-screen output (typically flight simulator games, etc...) is typically not available anymore.
    • Glamor (generic 2D acceleration via OpenGL) does not yet support this configuration (not sure if this will change).
    • I've got the feeling that X developers don't really like zaphod configurations for some reasons.


    Apart from that, everything else is far better imho.
    Care to comment on the "everything else"? Because I can only really think of games which usually don't handle multiple screens well doing better here.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    This sounds like a merged framebuffer setup.
    Ever tried a zaphod setup. i.e. separate screens?
    I do prefer this configuration.

    Downsides are:


    • You can't drag windows from one screen to other anymore.
    • Merged big-screen output (typically flight simulator games, etc...) is typically not available anymore.
    • Glamor (generic 2D acceleration via OpenGL) does not yet support this configuration (not sure if this will change).
    • I've got the feeling that X developers don't really like zaphod configurations for some reasons.


    Apart from that, everything else is far better imho.
    That is with radeon driver LVDS and DVI-0.
    I have a displaylink USB connector but couldn't get it to work under Fedora (they hardcoded more recent hardware IDs into some quirks for automatic setup but my device is older). With x2x this worked great with two instances of xorg, but you won't have any hardware acceleration and even watching a video is OK but not great. Also I had trouble with GTK, because it would screw up menus etc. on the displaylink device (Qt was fine).

    I can play like that, if I have the game fullscreen there is nothing else anyway and if I want to look up a quest or something I use the netbook Everything else than games works just better using a proper RandR setup.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropy View Post
    Downsides are:
    [LIST][*]You can't drag windows from one screen to other anymore.[*]Merged big-screen output (typically flight simulator games, etc...) is typically not available anymore.
    one man's downside is the other man's desire.

    personally, i don't want windows going around my screens. and if an app wants to draw two separate pictures, it should render to two separate windows/screens, not stretching everything along with crazy FoV.
    but that's just me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg16 View Post
    I wonder why Gräßlin forgot that quite a few users like to use laptops with external screens and are thus constantly changing resolution anyway.
    and it looks pretty idiotic in 2012, how people, instead of instantly having separate screens with retained ability to use them for separate tasks and drive their displays at native parameters, use ugly clone mode, while also setting display of greater quality on lower mode to accommodate for an inferior one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyborg16 View Post
    Care to comment on the "everything else"? Because I can only really think of games which usually don't handle multiple screens well doing better here.
    the facts that:
    1) all displays are at their best settings
    2) guarantee that things from one side will not mess up things on the other under any circumstances
    are pretty damn hefty on their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerRush View Post
    Sorry, this will be a rant:
    -- Start Rant --

    This whole “but changing resolution breaks our desktop icons” think is ridiculous, this is a bug on the KDE desktop and should be fixed there. His reasoning is similar to saying “some cars have bad brakes so lets forbid everyone from driving downhill”.

    In other words, he don't play games therefore something essential to games is not important. Come on, “run in windowed mode”? Since he doesn't play, I would encourage him to only watch videos on the video's native resolution (no maximize, no full-screen, even on a TV, if the source is not fullhd then it should be a tiny box in the middle of the screen) after all he hates those stretched pixels, lets see how mush he likes his windowed mode after that.

    I hate when some developer dismiss the requirements of a huge group of users (some times majority) just because he/she don't need it. I know the FOSS motto is “if you don't like it change it yourself” but in this case (and may others) there is someone working on changing/fixing and he is pressing against.

    -- End Rant --
    Sorry, I needed to take this out of my chest.
    inded, his attitude is disturbing.
    his plan in fixing kwin's multi-screen support, for example, is not giving a damn and waiting for a miracle: for Wayland to replace X everywhere at once, while magically making all right.

    Quote Originally Posted by [Knuckles] View Post
    (see: proposals to kill screensaver)
    that was fucked up too. and the fact that some screensavers's output is screwed in multi-screen still doesn't help.
    instead of fixing that, trying to kill off everything - what a genious development strategy !

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfx. View Post
    the facts that:
    1) all displays are at their best settings
    2) guarantee that things from one side will not mess up things on the other under any circumstances
    are pretty damn hefty on their own.
    The first you can do anyway. The second is an advantage, though to be honest I'd rather a more general solution (i.e. applications started under X not dying if X crashes but reattaching to another display).

    Kasoroth: couldn't agree with you more about faster switching and allowing overlays in the game.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by disi View Post
    Typical scenario for me with Gnome3 on Fedora 17 with two monitors:
    1. playing videos is ferfect, full screen on one monitor and e.g. a browser open in the other
    2. wine games (ddo) if full screen:
      • started on the main monitor, it will mirror in full screen on both
      • started on the external monitor, it will full screen only there but the wm on the other monitor is not accessable (Meta-Key still works and if you click something on the other monitor it will leave the game and you cannot go back)
      • the desktop will stay in it's resolution, no worries if the game crashes
    3. linux native games if full screen:
      • started on the main monitor, it will strech in full screen on both
      • if the game crashes, you are stuck with whatever resolution you ran
    4. gnome-rdp to connect to e.g. virt-manager running a vm, full screen on one monitor and works perfect

    I'm making a program (actually is done but is in phase of polishment ) for WinXP/Win7 and also works in WINE....

    It allows players to play with mouse+gamepad (i prefer that as opposite to mouse+keyboard ....in my system the mouse is used the same way for POV and it's keys for ADS, RUN/SPRINT , CROUCH and MELEE (yes, 3 buttons will make 4 functions ) even in games that don't support gamepads ....

    The program scans the games in your PC, pops a window with results, after you select game, it will totally rebind what's needed and launch game (it will take care also of left or right handed players and PC, PC+PS2 or PS3 gamepads)...



    ANYWAY, i also add some extra stuff when it's running via WINE...

    One of the extra tricks is precisely, no matter you simply exit game or game crashed, is to restore the resolution that you were using before launch game ....and i'm talking about true full screen gaming and not virtual desktop in WINE

    Till now it's working flawless....you can see some screenshots , info and videos of me playing at http://ajsb.no.sapo.pt

    Release is delayed because i'm now testing all games in WINE and have to make sure it works everything correctly also under that....eeerrrrr..."OS".

    (Program also takes care of a series of dlloverrides,etc automaticcly w/o you need to mess around with winetricks for each game)

  9. #9
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    I actually started a very similar thread on the Wayland mailing list a couple of years ago: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...er/000080.html

    The general concensus there was that games shouldn't be changing resolution, but instead, if the game requests a fullscreen resolution - the WM should provide the game a surface of the size it requested but then upscale that to fullscreen, perhaps even with sensible black-barring if the aspect ratio doesn't match the native resolution.

    I have no idea if this got implemented in Wayland. If someone is on the wm-spec-list it might be useful to post the above link on that thread.

  10. #10
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    Default Martin Gräßlin's reply is infuriating.

    Sorry, this will be a rant:

    -- Start Rant --

    Now if a game changes the resolution [widgets arrangement] gets completely destroyed. The
    manual layout is completely broken and cannot be restored (!) once the screen
    resolution changes back.[...]
    This whole “but changing resolution breaks our desktop icons” think is ridiculous, this is a bug on the KDE desktop and should be fixed there. His reasoning is similar to saying “some cars have bad brakes so lets forbid everyone from driving downhill”.

    Last but not least I have never understood the need to change the resolution.
    If the screen is larger than the resolution supported by the game, why not run
    in windowed mode? At least I (though I'm not a gamer) hate the pixel graphics
    I get when running a game which supports only 1024x768 on my full HD computer
    screen.
    In other words, he don't play games therefore something essential to games is not important. Come on, “run in windowed mode”? Since he doesn't play, I would encourage him to only watch videos on the video's native resolution (no maximize, no full-screen, even on a TV, if the source is not fullhd then it should be a tiny box in the middle of the screen) after all he hates those stretched pixels, lets see how mush he likes his windowed mode after that.

    I hate when some developer dismiss the requirements of a huge group of users (some times majority) just because he/she don't need it. I know the FOSS motto is “if you don't like it change it yourself” but in this case (and may others) there is someone working on changing/fixing and he is pressing against.

    -- End Rant --

    Sorry, I needed to take this out of my chest.
    Last edited by BadgerRush; 10-25-2012 at 09:48 AM.

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