Features Coming In For The GNOME 3.8 Desktop

[Larian]

That is not true either. Apart from Fedora and openSUSE the most popular distributions just dropped Gnome 3. You are free to use Unity, Mate or Cinnamon.

Now we're down to semantics I'm afraid. When you upgraded to a fresh install of an OS, such as Mint 12, you got Gnome3 as the default. I would call that being forced upon me. Of course I could install my preference afterward (and I did in the case of Ubuntu 12.04), but an upgrade from a previous Ubuntu to the latest LTS resulted in my old Gnome 2 desktop going away in favor of Gnome 3. It took considerable tinkering with fallback mode to get things mostly how I had them before.

Long story short, when you break my desktop experience by presenting me with a UI that I never wanted after begging me to upgrade, that's bad.

It strikes me that your argument about being free to use alternate DE's is functionally equivalent to denying Microsoft's vendor lock-in strategy. You can, after all, use another OS, so you're not being forced to use .Net or DirectX. Or in the Linux world, Canonical never forced the use of PulseAudio on anybody either, because you could always do a LOT of work and install OSS or finagle pure ALSA into working. Just fine. You know, like it did BEFORE they "improved" the audio stack by making PA the default and releasing it before it was ready.

[funkSTAR]

Latest rumble; supported or featured gnome extensions as a replacement for fallback. It is not sure though because it widens the scope to more than thw original gnome3 vision.

To me it sounds like a very nice trade off.

Losing all the fallback cruft which held back features AND get the exension system more official and supported.

First extensions tagged with "classic".
http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-sh...f647c959c7dd95

Haters: Please redirect all napalm towards gnomes reliance on openGL drivers, hardware or software based. And pray to God no one enhances those by the time 3.8 is released or gnome adds a way to do a no-animation mode. Prayers are needed!

[kigurai]

It strikes me that your argument about being free to use alternate DE's is functionally equivalent to denying Microsoft's vendor lock-in strategy. You can, after all, use another OS, so you're not being forced to use .Net or DirectX. Or in the Linux world, Canonical never forced the use of PulseAudio on anybody either, because you could always do a LOT of work and install OSS or finagle pure ALSA into working. Just fine. You know, like it did BEFORE they "improved" the audio stack by making PA the default and releasing it before it was ready.

So what is the solution? Freeze all Linux distributions as they looked in 2009 (or why not 1998?) and just do maintenance and new hardware drivers (as long as you don't need to do something new to support it, that is).
To me that sounds totally boring.

I think you will have to accept that things change, and if that is not an option then you can always continue running your distro from 2009, or band up with other people with similar thoughts and maintain something that behaves the way you like it.

If all the stop energy generated towards GNOME3, systemd, pulseaudio, or whatever is fashionable to hate this week, was directed to something useful I am sure it could power a complete distro with GNOME2, sysvinit and plain ALSA without any trouble

[Larian]

So what is the solution? Freeze all Linux distributions as they looked in 2009 (or why not 1998?) and just do maintenance and new hardware drivers (as long as you don't need to do something new to support it, that is).
To me that sounds totally boring.

The solution to what, exactly? I'm really not sure what you're talking about here.

I think you will have to accept that things change, and if that is not an option then you can always continue running your distro from 2009, or band up with other people with similar thoughts and maintain something that behaves the way you like it.

Of course things change. But that doesn't mean that things have to break. Do you know why there was such backlash against PulseAudio a couple of years ago? Because Canonical forced it on Ubuntu users and it didn't work. It just wasn't in any shape for use, and it replaced a system (effectively), which worked perfectly for most users. On top of all of that, it was a nightmare to remove from your computer if you wanted to install a new sound system like OSS or Jack. And let's not forget that one of the packages that went away when you uninstalled PulseAudio was Ubuntu Desktop.

But why? Why on earth should this have even been an issue? It was arm-twisting fuckery that doubtless led more than one person to move away from Ubuntu. There was a reason that people wrote all kinds of articles on methods for getting rid of the bloody thing.

If all the stop energy generated towards GNOME3, systemd, pulseaudio, or whatever is fashionable to hate this week, was directed to something useful I am sure it could power a complete distro with GNOME2, sysvinit and plain ALSA without any trouble

Maybe so. But you make light of my central point - it's not cool to offer an update that radically and fundamentally makes ninja changes to someone's computer. Why couldn't Canonical have left GNOME2 in place and installed their Unity DE alongside it? I've got several DE choices on this machine right now, and they all work nice and happy with one another. But that was a bridge too far for Canonical. GNOME3 with fallback mode was what you got with the upgrade (and you had to dig for fallback mode!), and your GNOME2 desktop was GONE. No confirmation dialogs during the upgrade, no pop-up windows, no nothing. Just poof.

So no, it's not progress that I'm having the problem with. It's the arbitrary alteration of the fundamental way my system works that rubs. Users should be given both notice and a choice of such radical alterations to their workflow before the first byte is installed. Especially if it's something as ubiquitous as a desktop environment.

And maybe Canonical should quit pushing shit out the door before it works.

[kigurai]

The solution to what, exactly? I'm really not sure what you're talking about here.

Speaking about lock-in, and forcing stuff on users. And also as a general comment towards the "new stuff broke my computer!" issue that I see flaring up all the time.

Of course things change. But that doesn't mean that things have to break. Do you know why there was such backlash against PulseAudio a couple of years ago? Because Canonical forced it on Ubuntu users and it didn't work. It just wasn't in any shape for use, and it replaced a system (effectively), which worked perfectly for most users. On top of all of that, it was a nightmare to remove from your computer if you wanted to install a new sound system like OSS or Jack. And let's not forget that one of the packages that went away when you uninstalled PulseAudio was Ubuntu Desktop.

Yes, I remember the outrage. I also remember that things got fixed pretty quick and is now a non-issue. Personally I had zero issues.

But why? Why on earth should this have even been an issue? It was arm-twisting fuckery that doubtless led more than one person to move away from Ubuntu. There was a reason that people wrote all kinds of articles on methods for getting rid of the bloody thing.

I don't remember seeing some kind of exodus. Do you know if there were ever any proof that Ubuntu actually lost people? To me it seems like Ubuntu has only ever grown.
Considering that PA is universally adopted by all the major distributions, I think we can with certainty say that even if the initial adoption was rough, it has been a success.

Maybe so. But you make light of my central point - it's not cool to offer an update that radically and fundamentally makes ninja changes to someone's computer. Why couldn't Canonical have left GNOME2 in place and installed their Unity DE alongside it? I've got several DE choices on this machine right now, and they all work nice and happy with one another. But that was a bridge too far for Canonical. GNOME3 with fallback mode was what you got with the upgrade (and you had to dig for fallback mode!), and your GNOME2 desktop was GONE. No confirmation dialogs during the upgrade, no pop-up windows, no nothing. Just poof.

And I can see this as a problem at institutions where users do not manage their own machine and are not following the Linux desktop development closely (or at all). Where I work, there was a few "stuff looks different" comments, and then everyone just kept working. Some installed extensions for features they missed. No problems at all.
My bet is that 100% (or close to) of people who complain about this "forced upgrade" and GNOME3 in genereal, yourself included, knew very well that GNOME3 would be completely different.

So no, it's not progress that I'm having the problem with. It's the arbitrary alteration of the fundamental way my system works that rubs. Users should be given both notice and a choice of such radical alterations to their workflow before the first byte is installed. Especially if it's something as ubiquitous as a desktop environment.

I agree that a notice would have been nice. But, see above.

And maybe Canonical should quit pushing shit out the door before it works.

Everything that I have seen that has been "pushed" on people have worked. For most people, and for most scenarios. Better QA from the distributions would of course be awesome, but given the heterogenous nature of Linux setups, I guess that is more or less impossible,

[Larian]

Speaking about lock-in, and forcing stuff on users. And also as a general comment towards the "new stuff broke my computer!" issue that I see flaring up all the time.

Yes, I remember the outrage. I also remember that things got fixed pretty quick and is now a non-issue. Personally I had zero issues.

Considering that PA is universally adopted by all the major distributions, I think we can with certainty say that even if the initial adoption was rough, it has been a success.

And I can see this as a problem at institutions where users do not manage their own machine and are not following the Linux desktop development closely (or at all). Where I work, there was a few "stuff looks different" comments, and then everyone just kept working. Some installed extensions for features they missed. No problems at all.

My bet is that 100% (or close to) of people who complain about this "forced upgrade" and GNOME3 in genereal, yourself included, knew very well that GNOME3 would be completely different.

I agree that a notice would have been nice. But, see above.

Everything that I have seen that has been "pushed" on people have worked. For most people, and for most scenarios. Better QA from the distributions would of course be awesome, but given the heterogenous nature of Linux setups, I guess that is more or less impossible,

Wow. I like the backhanded way in which you basically concede all my points, and then tell me that since you never had a problem, it can't really be a problem for anybody. All the issues I've mentioned have happened to me on my personal home machine, which I administrate. And I shouldn't have had to deal with ANY of them. I've beaten PulseAudio into submission after two bloody years of updates (the first versions most certainly left me with several apps that didn't make noise anymore, and I still have to set the padsp flag for some stuff!), and some people here STILL can't get HDMI audio to work through PulseAudio in a 64 bit environment. I avoid this last problem by using onboard audio, but that's a workaround, not a solution.

You see, I'm proud of the way my computer works. I spend a lot of time customizing it and tweaking things to my liking. My workflow is unique to me, and that's the way it ought to be. It's why I use Linux and not OSX or Windows - I'm supposed to have choices; I'm supposed to be able to have my computer run my way. When I spend uncounted hours growing my desktop and an update comes along and trashes the way I use my machine ... yeah, I take that personally.

And lastly, I'm not up in arms about an update installing a new DE - I lose my shit over an update deleting what you were using before by ambush. If I can figure out how to do a parallel install of 8 different desktop environments (yeah, EIGHT!), I find it hard to believe that Canonical just has its hands tied. If you're going to defend having an update completely remove your DE, without notice, and install some half-baked replacement that you have to manually bolt on fixes for so it will work the way the old one did ... we just can't continue this conversation.

[kigurai]

Wow. I like the backhanded way in which you basically concede all my points, and then tell me that since you never had a problem, it can't really be a problem for anybody. All the issues I've mentioned have happened to me on my personal home machine, which I administrate. And I shouldn't have had to deal with ANY of them. I've beaten PulseAudio into submission after two bloody years of updates (the first versions most certainly left me with several apps that didn't make noise anymore, and I still have to set the padsp flag for some stuff!), and some people here STILL can't get HDMI audio to work through PulseAudio in a 64 bit environment. I avoid this last problem by using onboard audio, but that's a workaround, not a solution.

It was not my intention to belittle your problems. I am just pointing out that in general people seem to have little trouble with PA, or the new UI in GNOME3.

You see, I'm proud of the way my computer works. I spend a lot of time customizing it and tweaking things to my liking. My workflow is unique to me, and that's the way it ought to be. It's why I use Linux and not OSX or Windows - I'm supposed to have choices; I'm supposed to be able to have my computer run my way. When I spend uncounted hours growing my desktop and an update comes along and trashes the way I use my machine ... yeah, I take that personally.

Understandable, I was a tinkerer for quite a while as well. Still, the "problem" is that new stuff will always be a mixed bag of improvements and regressions. You either take it or leave it. I see the same type of issues in other communities.

And lastly, I'm not up in arms about an update installing a new DE - I lose my shit over an update deleting what you were using before by ambush. If I can figure out how to do a parallel install of 8 different desktop environments (yeah, EIGHT!), I find it hard to believe that Canonical just has its hands tied. If you're going to defend having an update completely remove your DE, without notice, and install some half-baked replacement that you have to manually bolt on fixes for so it will work the way the old one did ... we just can't continue this conversation.

I am not going to defend Canonical or Ubuntu, as I am no longer using that particular distro. I will just reiterate: Yes, I think some kind of notice before upgrading that says "just so you know, things will look different after the upgrade" would have been nice. But no, I do not think it is the end of the world. If you are upgrading your operating system and do not consider the fact that things might change, then I think you are a bit naive.

I am also having a hard time understanding how someone who "has a unique workflow" and "is proud of the way their computer works" could have missed the fact that their distribution is changing desktop environment.

[Larian]

If you are upgrading your operating system and do not consider the fact that things might change, then I think you are a bit naive.

I am also having a hard time understanding how someone who "has a unique workflow" and "is proud of the way their computer works" could have missed the fact that their distribution is changing desktop environment.

My apologies for misconstruing your argument. I've been ill lately, compounded with other annoyances. It does things to the mood.

As you suggest, perhaps I am a bit naive to expect updates to keep their hands off my system (by not deleting every single installed DE that it can find, let's say), but I maintain that's how things ought to be. I assure you that I was aware the update would install Unity and GNOME3. However, I was not aware it would do so via scorched earth tactics. That really would've been nice to know beforehand. At least on this we appear to agree.

Your suggestion that one can either "take it or leave it" when it comes to updates which break things sounds nice. But that may be more than a little naive as well. My complaint on this point is that taking or leaving X first implies that one is informed well enough to make an intelligent choice. It also requires that a real choice is present. PulseAudio was not a choice, it was a decree from on-high. Ditto for GNOME3. What we got was assurances sounding like "TRY THIS NEW THING WE MADE! IT'S REALLY GREAT AND YOU'LL LOVE IT!" And then we tried it. And it was poop. And there was no way to roll things back other than a clean install.

[kigurai]

My apologies for misconstruing your argument. I've been ill lately, compounded with other annoyances. It does things to the mood.

It's ok. No hard feelings.

I do realize that the upgrades/new stuff had different impact on different systems, and that I probably got away pretty easy. I also DO know the feeling of things breaking (Nvidia/CUDA, I am looking at you!), but I get sad when it seems like it has become fashionable to hate specific projects. Especially when the reasons for the hate is vague and/or missing.