GNOME 3.x Will Bring Back Some GNOME 2 Features

[hubick]

It's not like the community doesn't like GNOME, or else they wouldn't be using it.

Hahahahaha!

[Tundra]

I had written up a much more thorough response to the rest of your criticisms, but I just couldn't stand the vitriol. You are free to use any desktop environment, and if you've really given GNOME an honest try and don't like it, please use something else. I want you to use what works for you and not have this kind of frustration. But when you see that it works for someone else, please accept it. I don't go around telling KDE users that their interface is broken and they need to stop shoving it down my throat. In fact, I like most of the main Linux environments- I just like some more than others.

I understand if you don't like the way I express myself, and am sorry if that bother you, but after being a GNOME user for so long (I've been using it the last 10/12 years, including GNOME3 since it was launched) and supporting it in every way I could (recommending it to users, helping them when they had problems, reporting bugs, fixing some of them, ...), now I feel betrayed. GNOME developers created something NEW and DIFFERENT, and placed that where GNOME was supposed to be. GNOME3 isn't an evolutionary change, it's a complete replacement with something else.

In my opinion, GNOME3 is so different it should have a new name. Even if that means abandoning GNOME as it was, somebody else would have continued it's legacy (including me). But now GNOME is dead and an impostor is in it's place, using it's name, benefiting from it's reputation while failing to many/most of it's users/supporters just to please the newcomers.

I'm not "talking shit from outside" like you imply in your KDE comment, I've always considered myself part of GNOME community. I wasn't telling GNOME that THEIR interface is broken, I was telling that OUR interface is broken. As I've already said, I loved it. But the developers are pushing me (and many others) out and aside. What kind of response do they expect after that?

We can still use the same applications and get along. And honestly, if anyone within the GNOME community is upset with me for telling Tundra he should use what works best for him, they can screw off, too. I'm not a telemarketer.

Do not worry, I've always done that anyways, but that "he" should be a "she".

P.S.: Some pleople have complained to me about my previous message. May be I didn't express myself right (not native english speaker, so bear with me) but I never intended any of what I wrote to be taken personally by you or any other developer. Just as an expression of my ideas as one of many frustrated users who are feeling unhappy.

[scionicspectre]

Apologies for saying 'he'. Unfortunately, in English you use 'he' as the pronoun when you aren't aware of someone's gender, and it's quite annoying. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm fine with you're language- the 'vitriol' is referring to the torrent of criticism from the people who aren't justified. But in your case, it certainly makes sense. I actually switched from KDE to GNOME 3 after using GNOME 2 for only about a year, so I don't really have anything but my contributions and verbal commitment to GNOME 3's design philosophy to justify my needs as a user. It's unfortunate that some people who have stuck behind a project for so long get shafted like that (reminds me of what I'm hearing from Windows users, lately).

If I'm being honest, I feel like GNOME should have a new name regardless. It's sad when people look at GNOME in awe and say, "what's that? It looks so cool!" and I have to fight back a chuckle and say, "it's gnome." "You mean like, a garden gnome?" they ask. "Uh, it's an outdated acronym... *cough*"

Luckily, though, there's Cinnamon, MATE, and XFCE, which are all viable replacements for GNOME 2. I always recommend XFCE for people who prefer that kind of interface since MATE and Cinnamon are more like unofficial hacks which on some new developers working on upstream/abandoned code rather than a team with full control over their resources. It just tends to be nicer when you're not relying on someone else's stuff too heavily.

But I still think that's not a very happy solution, since most people want the shiny bits of GNOME 3 without the revised interface layout. Saying 'use XFCE' could be seen as an insult, in that case.

So yeah, I can only sympathize with you on being so devoted to GNOME and loving it for so long and having this update land in your lap. That doesn't justify the complaints of people who only recently started using Linux, of course.

[Hamish Wilson]

Well, a few instances aside, I do see plenty of arrogance here - from the people posting. Yes, you, the community.

The Gnome 3 transition could have been handled better, and I do agree to an extent that it should have been given a new name. And this idea of a backup interface should have been better thought out rather than the rough evolution it has experienced over the past year. But the fact that they are actually responding to some of the criticism and are now being labelled as arrogant for it is both completely baffling and totally unacceptable from a human point of view. What more do you people want? They are taking your complaints seriously. But you are too up yourselves to see it, and keep this long steady refrain of flames and arrogance against hardworking FOSS developers working on their own projects.

They never had a contract with you, you never paid them a cent. They are free to do what they want. The fact that they are paying you the courtesy of taking your thoughts on board should be applauded. You are the arrogant ones here.

I am in no way associated with Gnome, and I am not even using it - I have been on Xfce for the past year as Gnome 3 does not work with Zaphod Heads, something which is crucial for me but something I can understand not being supported by Gnome. I just dislike seeing displays of poor behaviour.

So grow up and actually contribute something to what you do like, instead of flaming against what you don't. It has gotten seriously old.

[3coma3]

They never had a contract with you, you never paid them a cent. They are free to do what they want. The fact that they are paying you the courtesy of taking your thoughts on board should be applauded. You are the arrogant ones here.

So grow up and actually contribute something to what you do like, instead of flaming against what you don't. It has gotten seriously old.

This is contribution, and no it will *never* get old. Forget about we as a community not standing up against people menacing our OS. And I rightfully say OUR, because the devs aren't alone in the universe, users sometimes develop too, or otherwise give support to each other, do the bug testing and reporting, and know a bit or two more about actually using the software every day. FLOSS belongs to everyone participating, including, oh surprise, the users.

What IS getting old is this stupid notion that the users just have to shut up and swallow anything that happens. Like it or not forums exist so that people go there to voice their oppinion. As much as devs are free to do what they want, users are equally free to be vocal about devs misbehaving (and no I'm not talking here about making a shitty product like Gnome3 is, I'm talking about this).

All users have is their opinion, and their choice as tools to participate and influence the scene. Stop trying to take that from us, because it won't work, ever.

[Hamish Wilson]

This is contribution, and no it will *never* get old. Forget about we as a community not standing up against people menacing our OS. And I rightfully say OUR, because the devs aren't alone in the universe, users sometimes develop too, or otherwise give support to each other, do the bug testing and reporting, and know a bit or two more about actually using the software every day. FLOSS belongs to everyone participating, including, oh surprise, the users.

And you are free to stop using the software if it is not up to your taste. Still, you do not own the software. You are not entitled to it either.

What IS getting old is this stupid notion that the users just have to shut up and swallow anything that happens. Like it or not forums exist so that people go there to voice their oppinion. As much as devs are free to do what they want, users are equally free to be vocal about devs misbehaving (and no I'm not talking here about making a shitty product like Gnome3 is, I'm talking about this

You are free to voice your opinion yes, and I am free to tell you to grow up. Accusing the developers of misbehaving is also an interesting word. Consider this definition: "Bad or dishonest management by persons supposed to act on another's behalf". The things is, Gnome is not accountable to you and it never was meant to be. Perhaps you misunderstood the arrangement?

Still, on reflection I will admit my original use of the word "poor behaviour" may have been in of itself poor. For my part, I just find the behaviour to be unconscionable.

All users have is their opinion, and their choice as tools to participate and influence the scene. Stop trying to take that from us, because it won't work, ever.

What has anyone taken from you? Seriously, answer the question. I am curious as to what will be the answer.

[finalzone]

This is contribution, and no it will *never* get old. Forget about we as a community not standing up against people menacing our OS. And I rightfully say OUR, because the devs aren't alone in the universe, users sometimes develop too, or otherwise give support to each other, do the bug testing and reporting, and know a bit or two more about actually using the software every day. FLOSS belongs to everyone participating, including, oh surprise, the users.

What IS getting old is this stupid notion that the users just have to shut up and swallow anything that happens. Like it or not forums exist so that people go there to voice their oppinion. As much as devs are free to do what they want, users are equally free to be vocal about devs misbehaving (and no I'm not talking here about making a shitty product like Gnome3 is, I'm talking about this).

All users have is their opinion, and their choice as tools to participate and influence the scene. Stop trying to take that from us, because it won't work, ever.

You proved Hamish Wilson's point's. There are users who don't visit forum trying the new desktop environment. By giving information how to use it, those users will decide if it suits their need. Clearly in the Gnome case, some people too selfish tried impose their decisions to developers without active participation to the project. Obviously you were not there, you would understand the rationale.

[BO$$]

We weren't the ones who installed GNOME 3 on your computer, man. *does the wassamatta hands*

But seriously, I understand exactly what you're talking about. I use GNOME 3, evangelize it, I've contributed and whatnot, but as for many of us there's a KDE user in there somewhere, too. It just depends on what side you lean towards the most- no one in GNOME is saying don't use KDE. They're just offering an alternative to common interface design which dictates some things arbitrarily without taking into account what is natural for a human, not necessarily what's natural for someone who grew up in a world dominated by Windows and Mac OS. They're both useful.

The only thing you've said I take issue with (yep, don't even mind the swears) is that GNOME Shell doesn't work. It may not work for you, but it works for me, my grandma, my bioengineering pals, and a huge variety of types of users. I'm sorry, it's just the truth- I mean, do you think the people who enjoy using GNOME are just delusional and pretending it works?

No I just think you don't like to work fast. It's slower to go to a corner and change windows then using a taskbar. But don't worry. Got it covered in kde. They even have that windows 7 like thing where hovering a task in taskbar gets you a small window.

You tell 'em.

I've also made some small contributions to GNOME on the design side. I have no affiliation with RedHat, but I still agree with their interface decisions and encourage the more involved designers to keep improving things. I'm sorry, but Allan Day, Jakub Steiner, Matthias Clasen, and many more designers at GNOME are losing sleep over making a better interface, and to be harrassed as they have been is unjust, to say the least. It's not like the community doesn't like GNOME, or else they wouldn't be using it.

If you want to be heard, using arguments that rely on factual information is a good start.

Good thing now I have a list with the idiots whose work to avoid in the future. Harrased? They should be shot for this disgrace!

[kigurai]

No I just think you don't like to work fast. It's slower to go to a corner and change windows then using a taskbar. But don't worry. Got it covered in kde. They even have that windows 7 like thing where hovering a task in taskbar gets you a small window.

Is it? I'd love to see those test results! Because it could not be that you are simply stating opinions, and not facts, right?

Good thing now I have a list with the idiots whose work to avoid in the future. Harrased? They should be shot for this disgrace!

I think the world would generally be a happier place if you just avoided Gnome at all in the future. Also, asking to get people shot is not cool.

[3coma3]

And you are free to stop using the software if it is not up to your taste. Still, you do not own the software. You are not entitled to it either.

Obvieties: of course I won't use software I don't like - do you use all the software in the world including software you don't like?. In the case of Linux OSes taken as a whole, yes sir I very much own them, as does every other member that has contributed to it.

You are free to voice your opinion yes, and I am free to tell you to grow up. Accusing the developers of misbehaving is also an interesting word. Consider this definition: "Bad or dishonest management by persons supposed to act on another's behalf". The things is, Gnome is not accountable to you and it never was meant to be. Perhaps you misunderstood the arrangement?
Still, on reflection I will admit my original use of the word "poor behaviour" may have been in of itself poor. For my part, I just find the behaviour to be unconscionable.

What has anyone taken from you? Seriously, answer the question. I am curious as to what will be the answer.

I see you haven't bothered to read what I'm talking about, nor the hour or so that would take you to read the entire blog I have linked, and at least two levels deep of links from there. If you did, and you still don't see this isn't about "software I don't like", then I don't have anythinge else to say to you or speak with you. I'm sorry, but you are another entity detrimental to this ecosystem, as much politely as you express your thoughts.

Nobody has yet taken anything from me, read again: what I say is *you* try to silence criticism of GNOME (which you seem to like) by accusing critics of GNOME of "poor behaviour", and telling them that instead of voicing criticism they just "use other software".

I repeat to you, seeing as you seem so interested in answers: go read, read a lot of facts you don't take into account. This isn't about ugly software. This is about (just an example) making systemd a requirement for GNOME, and making systemd a requirement for udev. These systems are *all* made by the same people. Forcing downstream distros to use your software isn't exactly healthy competition, and these and many other tactics employed by these people show that new elements have to be taken into account to see the whole picture. Make a list of what company all these developers are employees, and then you really will to make your effort to continue to see that everything is peachy.

I don't have anything against GNOME3 per se, I really think it's huges steps backwards in respect to the previous version, and I've used both, but that's me (of course you might want to hear also the other million people with the same experience). What really disturbs me is that all this is part of a much bigger issue. And that *will* move me to be vocal about it.

You proved Hamish Wilson's point's. There are users who don't visit forum trying the new desktop environment. By giving information how to use it, those users will decide if it suits their need. Clearly in the Gnome case, some people too selfish tried impose their decisions to developers without active participation to the project. Obviously you were not there, you would understand the rationale.

You proved my point. There are users who don't like hearing other users which don't like the software. Information on how users like to use GNOME was given to the GNOME team to the point of saturation, long before and after it was released, and hordes of users and theme, extension, 3rd party, even core developers left GNOME alienated by the answers given...

It's nice to ask for participation in your project, and at the same time rejecting 90% of that participation. Clearly a good way to promote your project and get people involved and not alienating anyone. Again, you try to take my right to say all this my calling me selfish, so congrats for the passive-agressive attempt at censorship. Sadly it will stay an attempt, as much as you don't like to hear disagreement and complaint.