GNOME 3.x Will Bring Back Some GNOME 2 Features

[kigurai]

but this is no small project where a few people can get together and say "we will make the desktop we wanna use and not care about others"

Then we disagree again.
I think the people developing GNOME have the right to construct the desktop environment they want. Why would anyone want to develop a desktop environment that you don't want to use yourself?
That, I think, is insanity
Yes, GNOME is a large project, but should that really exclude them from trying something new, because some of their older users might not agree?

[BO$$]

After a long time of fighting with this new gnome shell and fallback mode I decided to try KDE after I last tried it like a year ago. Don't know what I didn't like back then but after trying it today I can say it's quite a viable option, especially if you like to configure things just the way you want them. I am surprised how less shitty kde has become in the past few years. Keep up the good work and don't listen to these idiots that try to do a paradigm change and other bullshit. Fuck you gnome! Fuck you! Fucking arrogant devs who think they know better.... How much wasted time on this bullshit, trying to talk to them and convince them that gnome shell doesn't work. I'm never coming back to gnome after all this shit they tossed. Again: fuck you gnome! Die already!!!!

[Tundra]

Assuming that you're actually asking this question, you can maximize a window more easily by dragging it to the window edge you would like it to fill (top to fill the whole screen), or if your screen is especially large, just double-click on any portion of the titlebar. This is clearly much easier than aiming for a square button on the edge of a window, but perhaps not as discoverable as some would like.

Are you seriously telling us that holding a button pressed while moving the mouse is easier than a single click? Really? Have you ever watched somebody with limited mobility do that? Are you saying it's easier to remember a different behavior for each edge of the screen than a single button? Are you crazy? Gnome used to be one of the more accessible desktops. Used to, not any longer.

And what do you consider an "screen especially large"? I have a 27" main screen and two 17" auxiliary screens, and I don't consider any of them or the sum of them to be especially large, in fact I run out of space pretty often.

So far as minimizing goes, GNOME is trying to avoid the behavior of hiding applications in an abstracted list. It's not a very natural behavior, and it may only seem so because most of us have been using task lists for a very long time. They don't represent much, and they are usually small targets for the mouse.

Not a natural behavior? Tell me you have never been caught by your mom/(girl/boy)friend/boss looking at a comic/porn/something and wanted to hide
it behind the table/desk? Same goes for windows in a computer, sometimes you need/want to hide things, and changing to a different area/desktop doesn't do the trick, because when they tell you to show them a web/picture/document you go to choose/create a different area and they can see all the already existent areas, including what you wanted to hide.

If you end up with more windows on the screen than you can manage, you can easily begin categorizing them in the overview. I understand that sometimes you don't always have a clear idea of how to group tasks, so a trick I like to use is middle-clicking the titlebar to send the window I've been looking at back.

And what do I do when I need to look at multiple windows wich hold input data I need to use for my current task? I NEED a lot of windows in the same screen, and It was easy to manage with gnome 2.xx, not any more with 3.x. Changing windows every few seconds isn't an option, I NEED them visible for a SINGLE TASK.

To be clear, while the overview is a good, natural way to manage tasks, the designers are aware of the issues with certain workflows and they're still trying to come up with better solutions to those problems.

So you admit you had something that WORKED, but wanted a change and shoved down OUR throats what YOU think is better, even when you KNOW it has flaws that can get in the way of the users.

Aside from that, GNOME tries to encourage you to focus on one task at a time, as reduced distractions are better for your productivity. Of course, if you're not working on anything that may just mean helping you focus better on having fun.

What happens when you NEED to manage multiple tasks simultaneously? Then GNOME gets in your way and stops you from working properly, because somebody thinks its better that way.

In my daily job, I have to monitor a lot of things that may or may not raise visual alarms any second (so multiple windows at the same time), do some minor tasks while keeping an eye on those alarms, and every few minutes shove the minor tasks aside (minimize) to attend one of those alarms or any unscheduled events (while still keeping an eye on the alarms). If I change to a second viewing area to use a maximized window, I can't see the alarms in the first area, so that is a BIG NO!!! to GNOME 3 new workflow.

In my own time, I usually have an IM app maximized on screen 1, a movie on auxiliary screen 3 and anything else on screen 2. If I'm reading my mail (thunderbird/evolution/claws/...) and click a link to open it in the browser, and then switch to a different area/desktop where my browser is, GNOME changes my 3 screens and I can't see whether somebody started talking to me. I could mark the media player window as visible on all desktops, but what happens to the IM multiple windows? That's only ONE example, me, but there are a LOT of people out there, with different use cases you DON'T KNOW.

Not to mention that mutter does have minimize and maximize, they just arent enabled by default.

That's the best part of GNOME. The "we have this functionality, so let's hide it because our users are so retarded they get confused by it, we know better after all because we are geniuses" mentality and attitude.

I've been a GNOME user since for a looong time, since I tried it with Debian 1.3.1. I've tried many alternatives during this years and always came back. Now I'm ashamed of supporting GNOME, and trying the alternatives again, but if things continue the way the are now, this time I won't be back

[scionicspectre]

Wow, this thread's gettin' crazy. I love how broad the discussion gets on these forums, since Phoronix attracts people from all over the Linux community.

I develop software in GNOME 3. I don't have a great deal of hardship doing so. I think the issue is that people come to GNOME with their own way of doing things, and if GNOME doesn't do everything just like they have been doing it, they throw their arms up saying that it's incompatible with their way of working.

The designers and developers are doing their best to improve the way we work in GNOME, and for me it has been effective. I do a lot of creative work and programming, and I don't find the Alt+Tab and window switching behavior more difficult than a taskbar. I find that being able to see and manage everything quickly with large mouse targets in the overview allows me to get a better cognitive visualization of what's happening on my computer, and helps me to know which task I'm even switching to, whereas a textual window list with icons isn't really telling me anything but the window title.

It may not work for you, and that's fine. But assuming that it just plain doesn't work, not for anyone, is totally wrong. While GNOME contributors have to make decisions about how to craft a more pleasant user experience, the infrastructure is very flexible. Cinnamon, elementary, and extensions are proof of GTK and libmutter's flexibility, and it's certainly not necessary to GNOME's success to be this open and customizable. You don't have to use GNOME- if you've tried for a couple weeks and it hasn't grown on you, please do use something else.

Just don't expect angst to change anyone's mind. Being a UI biggot and flailing your arms wildly will never be as useful as engaging with the designers and developers, expressing your concerns calmly, and having a two-way discussion about how the UI could meet your needs better. And if you come to an impasse, accept that GNOME's default interface is not for you, and that's okay.

[scionicspectre]

After a long time of fighting with this new gnome shell and fallback mode I decided to try KDE after I last tried it like a year ago. Don't know what I didn't like back then but after trying it today I can say it's quite a viable option, especially if you like to configure things just the way you want them. I am surprised how less shitty kde has become in the past few years. Keep up the good work and don't listen to these idiots that try to do a paradigm change and other bullshit. Fuck you gnome! Fuck you! Fucking arrogant devs who think they know better.... How much wasted time on this bullshit, trying to talk to them and convince them that gnome shell doesn't work. I'm never coming back to gnome after all this shit they tossed. Again: fuck you gnome! Die already!!!!

We weren't the ones who installed GNOME 3 on your computer, man. *does the wassamatta hands*

But seriously, I understand exactly what you're talking about. I use GNOME 3, evangelize it, I've contributed and whatnot, but as for many of us there's a KDE user in there somewhere, too. It just depends on what side you lean towards the most- no one in GNOME is saying don't use KDE. They're just offering an alternative to common interface design which dictates some things arbitrarily without taking into account what is natural for a human, not necessarily what's natural for someone who grew up in a world dominated by Windows and Mac OS. They're both useful.

The only thing you've said I take issue with (yep, don't even mind the swears) is that GNOME Shell doesn't work. It may not work for you, but it works for me, my grandma, my bioengineering pals, and a huge variety of types of users. I'm sorry, it's just the truth- I mean, do you think the people who enjoy using GNOME are just delusional and pretending it works?

[SemiLucid]

I just registered to say I dislike the way Gnome has handicapped the user interface, and believe it was driven as a fad with the advent of iOS and touch screen interfaces.

I hope the old GNOME 2.x functionality will be easy to enable and not hidden away in some convoluted way. Basically I want the ability to choose Gnome 2 at installation.

[bkor]

They screw up badly calling names those who don't like their crazy decisions and after a long while they give in partially while keeping an arrogant face.

Can you give a reference? I'm wondering if the person you're referring to is actually involved in GNOME.

[bkor]

This is just another account of how amazingly full of shit the GNOME team (Red Hat, let's just call it with it real name)

I don't work for Red Hat. I find it curious that you think I am. In any case, feel free to pay me for the various years of work I contributed towards GNOME. If you want you can donate that money to the GNOME foundation.

[scionicspectre]

Tundra, just to be clear, I was explicitly referring to double-clicking anywhere on the titlebar being easier than aiming for a small, square button. Not dragging the window to a screen edge (this is obviously more difficult the larger your display gets). So no, I'm not crazy on that one, just being a bit misunderstood. Considering that GNOME is focused on laptops, I'd say 27 inches is larger than what most people are using, although I use a 27 inch monitor and I don't have a great deal of difficulting moving things over. There are accessibility options for those with decreased mobility. Just like with the minimize button, if you find you need to hide windows more often, you can use the Advanced Settings to enable it. Needless to say, most people who use GNOME daily can do without them just fine.

I had written up a much more thorough response to the rest of your criticisms, but I just couldn't stand the vitriol. You are free to use any desktop environment, and if you've really given GNOME an honest try and don't like it, please use something else. I want you to use what works for you and not have this kind of frustration. But when you see that it works for someone else, please accept it. I don't go around telling KDE users that their interface is broken and they need to stop shoving it down my throat. In fact, I like most of the main Linux environments- I just like some more than others.

We can still use the same applications and get along. And honestly, if anyone within the GNOME community is upset with me for telling Tundra he should use what works best for him, they can screw off, too. I'm not a telemarketer.

[scionicspectre]

I don't work for Red Hat. I find it curious that you think I am. In any case, feel free to pay me for the various years of work I contributed towards GNOME. If you want you can donate that money to the GNOME foundation.

You tell 'em.

I've also made some small contributions to GNOME on the design side. I have no affiliation with RedHat, but I still agree with their interface decisions and encourage the more involved designers to keep improving things. I'm sorry, but Allan Day, Jakub Steiner, Matthias Clasen, and many more designers at GNOME are losing sleep over making a better interface, and to be harrassed as they have been is unjust, to say the least. It's not like the community doesn't like GNOME, or else they wouldn't be using it.

If you want to be heard, using arguments that rely on factual information is a good start.