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Thread: Linux Audio Driver Improvements On The Horizon

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    Default Linux Audio Driver Improvements On The Horizon

    Phoronix: Linux Audio Driver Improvements On The Horizon

    The audio/sound pull for the Linux 3.8 kernel has been sent in and it features audio driver improvements, new capabilities, clean-ups, and more...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTI1MTY

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    But we still require to use a beast like JACK to do "professional" audio under Linux...

    And well, hardware mixer support is limited to a few cards (most of them Creative ones). And let's forget about advanced features of DSPs, like the E-MU ones or others.

    MacOS X and even Windows still has an extremely high amount of advantages in the audio stuff.

    I really hope the KLANG concept gets matured soon, this is one of the lots of lacks for making Linux a proper desktop system.

    And Pulseaudio SUCKS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timofonic View Post
    But we still require to use a beast like JACK to do "professional" audio under Linux...

    And well, hardware mixer support is limited to a few cards (most of them Creative ones). And let's forget about advanced features of DSPs, like the E-MU ones or others.

    MacOS X and even Windows still has an extremely high amount of advantages in the audio stuff.

    I really hope the KLANG concept gets matured soon, this is one of the lots of lacks for making Linux a proper desktop system.

    And Pulseaudio SUCKS.
    Linux doesn't need an even better audio subsystem, it needs professional audio applications that don't suck. The problem is that the flagship DAW is Ardour, whose v3 release has been delayed for about 3 years now. Ardour3 was going to finally bring MIDI support, which most people consider critical, as Cubase and every other Windows and Mac DAW since about 1995 released have had MIDI support. The other problem with Ardour is that it crashes more often than a blind man driving a Ferrari. Paul apparently doesn't know how to fix it, so he announced that he'll be releasing Ardour3 soon regardless of the issues with it so that they can start piling more features on top of their crashy piece of shit DAW, while whining about how $3000 a month in donations just isn't enough.

    For that matter, any of the other Linux DAWs with about 10 years of development that still aren't stable and don't have basic features aren't going to be the one to put Linux audio on the map either. There are a number of promising new projects out there, but only time will tell if any of them make it, or become just another abandoned Linux audio project that once had potential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    Linux doesn't need an even better audio subsystem, it needs professional audio applications that don't suck. The problem is that the flagship DAW is Ardour, whose v3 release has been delayed for about 3 years now. Ardour3 was going to finally bring MIDI support, which most people consider critical, as Cubase and every other Windows and Mac DAW since about 1995 released have had MIDI support. The other problem with Ardour is that it crashes more often than a blind man driving a Ferrari. Paul apparently doesn't know how to fix it, so he announced that he'll be releasing Ardour3 soon regardless of the issues with it so that they can start piling more features on top of their crashy piece of shit DAW, while whining about how $3000 a month in donations just isn't enough.

    For that matter, any of the other Linux DAWs with about 10 years of development that still aren't stable and don't have basic features aren't going to be the one to put Linux audio on the map either. There are a number of promising new projects out there, but only time will tell if any of them make it, or become just another abandoned Linux audio project that once had potential.
    The real question then needs to be asked: Why after 10 years can no one seem to get a pro audio application that doesn't suck together? Maybe the app developers aren't the root problem?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamerk2 View Post
    The real question then needs to be asked: Why after 10 years can no one seem to get a pro audio application that doesn't suck together? Maybe the app developers aren't the root problem?
    When I attempt to run Ardour3, it usually crashes before I can do anything useful. It doesn't crash because of Jack or ALSA, it crashes because it has garbage code full of coding errors, they would do better to scrap what they have and start over again, like Cubase has done several times in it's history.

    Windows and Mac have a strong ecosystem with multiple DAW vendors, and legions of plugin developers. Most plugins and instruments for Linux pretty much suck too, but the reason probably comes down to the lack of good DAWs to run them in. In Windows and VST, there are about 1000 plugin developers for every DAW developer, and everything usually just works. In Linux that ratio is perhaps just 4 to 1, because more people saw the need for to write a DAW to run plugins in, than writing plugins with no reliable DAW to run them in, although none of them seem to be able to write that magical stable DAW.

    I think if one good project can go the distance and compete with Windows, then more top talent from Windows and Mac will consider crossing over to Linux. As far as proprietary DAWs, Reaper seems to have renewed work on a native Linux port, which could be it, but then again the Reaper devs have a legacy of not finishing what they've started, broken promises and so on, so I wouldn't wait on them. Nor would I wait on Bitwig Studio, I'm beginning to think they're not serious, they've been in beta for a long time, and seem long on dreams and short on actual product. I'm pinning my hopes on some of the newer projects that began as native Linux applications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    Windows and Mac have a strong ecosystem with multiple DAW vendors, and legions of plugin developers. Most plugins and instruments for Linux pretty much suck too, but the reason probably comes down to the lack of good DAWs to run them in. In Windows and VST, there are about 1000 plugin developers for every DAW developer, and everything usually just works. In Linux that ratio is perhaps just 4 to 1, because more people saw the need for to write a DAW to run plugins in, than writing plugins with no reliable DAW to run them in, although none of them seem to be able to write that magical stable DAW.
    Actually it's quite cool what some people have done with vst plugins with wine and jack. I had a look at this stuff recently and it's not really hard to setup:

    Some presets don't seem to initialize correctly and when inputting too much at the same time the sound gets scrambled but maybe I just need to run jack with realtime priority, this was just run as user, everything set to default.

    Also, I'm not sure how well this interacts with other audio software.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    When I attempt to run Ardour3, it usually crashes before I can do anything useful. It doesn't crash because of Jack or ALSA, it crashes because it has garbage code full of coding errors, they would do better to scrap what they have and start over again, like Cubase has done several times in it's history.

    Windows and Mac have a strong ecosystem with multiple DAW vendors, and legions of plugin developers. Most plugins and instruments for Linux pretty much suck too, but the reason probably comes down to the lack of good DAWs to run them in. In Windows and VST, there are about 1000 plugin developers for every DAW developer, and everything usually just works. In Linux that ratio is perhaps just 4 to 1, because more people saw the need for to write a DAW to run plugins in, than writing plugins with no reliable DAW to run them in, although none of them seem to be able to write that magical stable DAW.

    I think if one good project can go the distance and compete with Windows, then more top talent from Windows and Mac will consider crossing over to Linux. As far as proprietary DAWs, Reaper seems to have renewed work on a native Linux port, which could be it, but then again the Reaper devs have a legacy of not finishing what they've started, broken promises and so on, so I wouldn't wait on them. Nor would I wait on Bitwig Studio, I'm beginning to think they're not serious, they've been in beta for a long time, and seem long on dreams and short on actual product. I'm pinning my hopes on some of the newer projects that began as native Linux applications.
    I'm just going to point out that there are some /very/ nice instruments for linux. The gui isn't the best, but zynaddsubfx is a beast of a synth, AMS is just one of the awesome modulars, and Bristol covers all of the classic sounds. The plugin instruments are largely not the greatest, but that isn't really how linux sound is designed. The entire point of Jack is that applications can be tied together.


    Also, Ardour doesn't really need midi, that is Rosegarden's job. :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    Linux doesn't need an even better audio subsystem, it needs professional audio applications that don't suck. The problem is that the flagship DAW is Ardour, whose v3 release has been delayed for about 3 years now. Ardour3 was going to finally bring MIDI support, which most people consider critical, as Cubase and every other Windows and Mac DAW since about 1995 released have had MIDI support. The other problem with Ardour is that it crashes more often than a blind man driving a Ferrari. Paul apparently doesn't know how to fix it, so he announced that he'll be releasing Ardour3 soon regardless of the issues with it so that they can start piling more features on top of their crashy piece of shit DAW, while whining about how $3000 a month in donations just isn't enough.
    I agree that linux needs more proaudio applications and that DAWs in linux have been slow to get midi... However, I disagree with your comment on ALSA (or FFADO for that matter) not needing improvements. They are alright, but do leave _a_lot_ to be desired, in certain areas - to claim otherwise is well, quite dumb :\

    from my own experiences, there are certain critiques of yours that i find to be somewhat off of the mark (and laughable!) 1st. Ardour3 has crashed _maybe_ 10 times over the last 6 months on my machine. (being built from git, every few days) - i would say twice a month (just under) isn't too bad for beta software! (in fact, far less than using several other daws in both Windows/Mac, at times - including Ableton Live, Protools and Logic 9). 2nd. Apparently, you either A). weren't able to absorb what Paul's post @ ardour.org regarding A3's release was _actually_ about (is english not your 1st language / you have poor comprehension?) ... or B). you are intentionally being dishonest, misrepresenting what his position and what that post was all about.

    That post wasn't about 'paul not being able to fix a bug' - 'so screw it, we'll just release it' - it was about their current development model becoming *stagnant*. He is finding that the idea of 'feature freezes' is slowing down development (being as you are limiting development to nothing more than bug fixing) and later in the comments he goes on to explain that in some cases the odd bug would be solved by changes that they had planned for after the feature freeze / official release... So now, by deciding to move forward, they can start implementing some of the 'deeper' changes and get development rolling again, while also continuing to work on bugs ~ which 1) makes development fun again / keeps interest amognst devs and 2) in some cases will make solving bugs easy 3) benefits users who may be waiting for features that are planned for 3.1 (such as video-timeline, for example).

    all three of these outcomes, are good reasons to change the development model. but apparently, you didn't understand even *one little bit* of what that article was actually about.

    anyway, I think the improvements/fixes coming to 3.8 should be good (although, i am not sure when i will actually be using those changes, as i will have to wait until linux-rt is using 3.8+).

    cheerz
    Last edited by ninez; 12-14-2012 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    I agree that linux needs more proaudio applications and that DAWs in linux have been slow to get midi... However, I disagree with your comment on ALSA (or FFADO for that matter) not needing improvements. They are alright, but do leave _a_lot_ to be desired, in certain areas - to claim otherwise is well, quite dumb :\

    from my own experiences, there are certain critiques of yours that i find to be somewhat off of the mark (and laughable!) 1st. Ardour3 has crashed _maybe_ 10 times over the last 6 months on my machine. (being built from git, every few days) - i would say twice a month (just under) isn't too bad for beta software! (in fact, far less than using several other daws in both Windows/Mac, at times - including Ableton Live, Protools and Logic 9). 2nd. Apparently, you either A). weren't able to absorb what Paul's post @ ardour.org regarding A3's release was _actually_ about (is english not your 1st language / you have poor comprehension?) ... or B). you are intentionally being dishonest, misrepresenting what his position and what that post was all about.

    That post wasn't about 'paul not being able to fix a bug' - 'so screw it, we'll just release it' - it was about their current development model becoming *stagnant*. He is finding that the idea of 'feature freezes' is slowing down development (being as you are limiting development to nothing more than bug fixing) and later in the comments he goes on to explain that in some cases the odd bug would be solved by changes that they had planned for after the feature freeze / official release... So now, by deciding to move forward, they can start implementing some of the 'deeper' changes and get development rolling again, while also continuing to work on bugs ~ which 1) makes development fun again / keeps interest amognst devs and 2) in some cases will make solving bugs easy 3) benefits users who may be waiting for features that are planned for 3.1 (such as video-timeline, for example).

    all three of these outcomes, are good reasons to change the development model. but apparently, you didn't understand even *one little bit* of what that article was actually about.

    anyway, I think the improvements/fixes coming to 3.8 should be good (although, i am not sure when i will actually be using those changes, as i will have to wait until linux-rt is using 3.8+).

    cheerz
    I never said Jack and ALSA were perfect, but the most likely problem anyone will ever have with them is that some features of your soundcard may not be properly supported, they are usually stable.

    If you are only using Ardour3 to record and mix external audio, then you're really just using the Ardour2 features. Only somebody affiliated with Paul would suggest that the MIDI features are stable enough that any sane person should want to use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul
    So, with all this in mind, there is a conundrum: in order to keep development active and new (useful) features flowing through the development platform, not to mention fixes for bugs that require deep architectural changes, it is desirable to use a rolling release model.

    ...

    Ardour 3.0 has been in better shape for audio than Ardour 2.X for some time, although some people use a workflow that seems less stable in Ardour 3.0. Ardour 3.0's handling of MIDI is far from the condition I was hoping it would be at release, but nothing is being gained by delaying release any further.
    Yeah buddy, I don't think my English is misinterpreting that he's given up on fixing some serious bugs before release. I'll continue using Windows for audio and keeping an eye on new projects, because the old projects have all proven to be failures.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    I never said Jack and ALSA were perfect, but the most likely problem anyone will ever have with them is that some features of your soundcard may not be properly supported, they are usually stable.
    you said they didn't need improvement vs. the need for more professional software and i disagree. i did not say you said they were 'perfect'. that is fallacious and nonsensical.

    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    If you are only using Ardour3 to record and mix external audio, then you're really just using the Ardour2 features. Only somebody affiliated with Paul would suggest that the MIDI features are stable enough that any sane person should want to use them.
    a big _if_ of an assumption... also a huge assumption that i am somehow 'associated' with Paul, which as a matter of fact, i am not. ~ I don't know him, aside from that he is a well-known developer. probably less than you could find by googling him. The only interaction that i have had with paul was a few times on the jack-devel list (spread out over a few years), once in these forums (recently, in the klang thread) ... So I am less 'associated' with him, than i am with the owner of the local convenient store (down the street).

    The midi stuff used to be really bad (earlier this year), but there came a tipping point where it became usable for me. I'm not entirely happy with some of the rough edges, particularly in UI, but that stuff will get worked out in time. Maybe, i am lucky or maybe you just keep walking off the cliff like a lemming into the same bug.

    But since you've (so arrogantly) have been shit talking their coding, etc - then how come you haven't come to save the day, then??? - i mean with all that talk, you should be able to just jump in and do it, right? (if not, then your a chump for talking the way you do!)


    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    Yeah buddy, I don't think my English is misinterpreting that he's given up on fixing some serious bugs before release. I'll continue using Windows for audio and keeping an eye on new projects, because the old projects have all proven to be failures.
    Ouch, so it's not your english, but actually just your comprehension... :\ You should have just said it was your english. The article wasn't about giving up on bugs, the overwhelming theme was concern over development within the project. ...and what approach they have decided to take. ~ hell, even what you put in bold is almost like quote-mining, it's almost like your not reading the parts around them...lol (that are apart of the same sentence or thought... are you slow or something?)

    anyways, rather than arrogantly crapping all over other people's work, bitching and complaining, whining, etc. Why don't you just go use windows, instead. I love writing techno in metro (they even rhyme. feel free to use that as a lyric, if you sing!)
    Last edited by ninez; 12-14-2012 at 11:02 PM.

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