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Thread: Linux Audio Driver Improvements On The Horizon

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by timofonic View Post
    But we still require to use a beast like JACK to do "professional" audio under Linux...
    And what is the problem here? I mean, jack is an extremely powerful tool and sound server. You could complain about it not integrating well with pulseaudio for now and thus not being user friendly, but it's nice to have a specialized sound server just for professional audio that takes no compromises.

    Quote Originally Posted by timofonic View Post
    And well, hardware mixer support is limited to a few cards (most of them Creative ones). And let's forget about advanced features of DSPs, like the E-MU ones or others.
    And in what cases is this relevant for professional audio? You would never want to leave jack for your DSP chain because it's hundreds orders of magnitude more flexible than any hardware DSP and avoids costly latency and bandwidth usage between I/O devices, and hardware mixing is totally inviable while you are already doing all the DSP in software inside jack or whatever you use in windows/mac (guess what, there is no use for hardware DSP and mixing there too).
    Also, nowadays it's cheaper to mix everything in the cpu than to use costly bandwidth to move dozens of audio streams to a very inflexible piece or hardware just to offload mixing. And even if you are talking about these hardware Equalizer, virtual surround or something you get with cheap HDA drivers in windows, they are pretty terrible in terms of quality and implementation. I would rather use a good pulseaudio plugin for system-wide equalizer and virtual surround, but alas, nobody is doing that right now and your best bet is to dump pulseaudio into jack and put your favorite EQ and other DSP in the path. This is actually a really good solution with very low latency even for games and high sound quality, BUT, it's not user friendly to fiddle with jack and make pulseaudio cooperate(as of right now).

    Quote Originally Posted by timofonic View Post
    MacOS X and even Windows still has an extremely high amount of advantages in the audio stuff.
    Not "extreme", but I do agree their approach is more user friendly. Although not necessarily technically sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by timofonic View Post
    I really hope the KLANG concept gets matured soon, this is one of the lots of lacks for making Linux a proper desktop system.
    As many much more capable developers than me or you have said, KLANG is not viable. It actually goes against from a lot of things made in mac and windows sound system, that you seen to favor.
    Last edited by Adriano ML; 12-14-2012 at 12:51 PM.

  2. #12
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    Default A lot still to be done

    A lot of years passed since the first hardware accelerated sound card appeared (the SB Live!) and still there isn't a Linux implementation that takes advantage of that via OpenAL.

    Nor Creative with Live!, Audigy, X-FI, nor Cirrus Logic with Crystal Media chips on Maxi Sound Fortissimo, nor Asus with Xonar ...

    No company put effort on that, and no comunity effort on reverse-engineering.

    Seems that reverse-engineering graphic drivers worth, and sound ones not.


    Now, in graphics drivers we are not too far Windows, but sound ones need more coders.

  3. #13
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    Except that OpenAL is not a driver? It's like OpenGL in the audio world, except it's proprietary.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by gamerk2 View Post
    The real question then needs to be asked: Why after 10 years can no one seem to get a pro audio application that doesn't suck together? Maybe the app developers aren't the root problem?
    When I attempt to run Ardour3, it usually crashes before I can do anything useful. It doesn't crash because of Jack or ALSA, it crashes because it has garbage code full of coding errors, they would do better to scrap what they have and start over again, like Cubase has done several times in it's history.

    Windows and Mac have a strong ecosystem with multiple DAW vendors, and legions of plugin developers. Most plugins and instruments for Linux pretty much suck too, but the reason probably comes down to the lack of good DAWs to run them in. In Windows and VST, there are about 1000 plugin developers for every DAW developer, and everything usually just works. In Linux that ratio is perhaps just 4 to 1, because more people saw the need for to write a DAW to run plugins in, than writing plugins with no reliable DAW to run them in, although none of them seem to be able to write that magical stable DAW.

    I think if one good project can go the distance and compete with Windows, then more top talent from Windows and Mac will consider crossing over to Linux. As far as proprietary DAWs, Reaper seems to have renewed work on a native Linux port, which could be it, but then again the Reaper devs have a legacy of not finishing what they've started, broken promises and so on, so I wouldn't wait on them. Nor would I wait on Bitwig Studio, I'm beginning to think they're not serious, they've been in beta for a long time, and seem long on dreams and short on actual product. I'm pinning my hopes on some of the newer projects that began as native Linux applications.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    Linux doesn't need an even better audio subsystem, it needs professional audio applications that don't suck. The problem is that the flagship DAW is Ardour, whose v3 release has been delayed for about 3 years now. Ardour3 was going to finally bring MIDI support, which most people consider critical, as Cubase and every other Windows and Mac DAW since about 1995 released have had MIDI support. The other problem with Ardour is that it crashes more often than a blind man driving a Ferrari. Paul apparently doesn't know how to fix it, so he announced that he'll be releasing Ardour3 soon regardless of the issues with it so that they can start piling more features on top of their crashy piece of shit DAW, while whining about how $3000 a month in donations just isn't enough.
    I agree that linux needs more proaudio applications and that DAWs in linux have been slow to get midi... However, I disagree with your comment on ALSA (or FFADO for that matter) not needing improvements. They are alright, but do leave _a_lot_ to be desired, in certain areas - to claim otherwise is well, quite dumb :\

    from my own experiences, there are certain critiques of yours that i find to be somewhat off of the mark (and laughable!) 1st. Ardour3 has crashed _maybe_ 10 times over the last 6 months on my machine. (being built from git, every few days) - i would say twice a month (just under) isn't too bad for beta software! (in fact, far less than using several other daws in both Windows/Mac, at times - including Ableton Live, Protools and Logic 9). 2nd. Apparently, you either A). weren't able to absorb what Paul's post @ ardour.org regarding A3's release was _actually_ about (is english not your 1st language / you have poor comprehension?) ... or B). you are intentionally being dishonest, misrepresenting what his position and what that post was all about.

    That post wasn't about 'paul not being able to fix a bug' - 'so screw it, we'll just release it' - it was about their current development model becoming *stagnant*. He is finding that the idea of 'feature freezes' is slowing down development (being as you are limiting development to nothing more than bug fixing) and later in the comments he goes on to explain that in some cases the odd bug would be solved by changes that they had planned for after the feature freeze / official release... So now, by deciding to move forward, they can start implementing some of the 'deeper' changes and get development rolling again, while also continuing to work on bugs ~ which 1) makes development fun again / keeps interest amognst devs and 2) in some cases will make solving bugs easy 3) benefits users who may be waiting for features that are planned for 3.1 (such as video-timeline, for example).

    all three of these outcomes, are good reasons to change the development model. but apparently, you didn't understand even *one little bit* of what that article was actually about.

    anyway, I think the improvements/fixes coming to 3.8 should be good (although, i am not sure when i will actually be using those changes, as i will have to wait until linux-rt is using 3.8+).

    cheerz
    Last edited by ninez; 12-14-2012 at 07:22 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by timofonic View Post
    But we still require to use a beast like JACK to do "professional" audio under Linux...
    Funny complaint... Ever tried to have a professional audio experience in windows without ASIO???

    because, if this was a Windows forum - that would be exactly what your would be saying/complaining about. lolol

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    I agree that linux needs more proaudio applications and that DAWs in linux have been slow to get midi... However, I disagree with your comment on ALSA (or FFADO for that matter) not needing improvements. They are alright, but do leave _a_lot_ to be desired, in certain areas - to claim otherwise is well, quite dumb :\

    from my own experiences, there are certain critiques of yours that i find to be somewhat off of the mark (and laughable!) 1st. Ardour3 has crashed _maybe_ 10 times over the last 6 months on my machine. (being built from git, every few days) - i would say twice a month (just under) isn't too bad for beta software! (in fact, far less than using several other daws in both Windows/Mac, at times - including Ableton Live, Protools and Logic 9). 2nd. Apparently, you either A). weren't able to absorb what Paul's post @ ardour.org regarding A3's release was _actually_ about (is english not your 1st language / you have poor comprehension?) ... or B). you are intentionally being dishonest, misrepresenting what his position and what that post was all about.

    That post wasn't about 'paul not being able to fix a bug' - 'so screw it, we'll just release it' - it was about their current development model becoming *stagnant*. He is finding that the idea of 'feature freezes' is slowing down development (being as you are limiting development to nothing more than bug fixing) and later in the comments he goes on to explain that in some cases the odd bug would be solved by changes that they had planned for after the feature freeze / official release... So now, by deciding to move forward, they can start implementing some of the 'deeper' changes and get development rolling again, while also continuing to work on bugs ~ which 1) makes development fun again / keeps interest amognst devs and 2) in some cases will make solving bugs easy 3) benefits users who may be waiting for features that are planned for 3.1 (such as video-timeline, for example).

    all three of these outcomes, are good reasons to change the development model. but apparently, you didn't understand even *one little bit* of what that article was actually about.

    anyway, I think the improvements/fixes coming to 3.8 should be good (although, i am not sure when i will actually be using those changes, as i will have to wait until linux-rt is using 3.8+).

    cheerz
    I never said Jack and ALSA were perfect, but the most likely problem anyone will ever have with them is that some features of your soundcard may not be properly supported, they are usually stable.

    If you are only using Ardour3 to record and mix external audio, then you're really just using the Ardour2 features. Only somebody affiliated with Paul would suggest that the MIDI features are stable enough that any sane person should want to use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul
    So, with all this in mind, there is a conundrum: in order to keep development active and new (useful) features flowing through the development platform, not to mention fixes for bugs that require deep architectural changes, it is desirable to use a rolling release model.

    ...

    Ardour 3.0 has been in better shape for audio than Ardour 2.X for some time, although some people use a workflow that seems less stable in Ardour 3.0. Ardour 3.0's handling of MIDI is far from the condition I was hoping it would be at release, but nothing is being gained by delaying release any further.
    Yeah buddy, I don't think my English is misinterpreting that he's given up on fixing some serious bugs before release. I'll continue using Windows for audio and keeping an eye on new projects, because the old projects have all proven to be failures.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    I never said Jack and ALSA were perfect, but the most likely problem anyone will ever have with them is that some features of your soundcard may not be properly supported, they are usually stable.
    you said they didn't need improvement vs. the need for more professional software and i disagree. i did not say you said they were 'perfect'. that is fallacious and nonsensical.

    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    If you are only using Ardour3 to record and mix external audio, then you're really just using the Ardour2 features. Only somebody affiliated with Paul would suggest that the MIDI features are stable enough that any sane person should want to use them.
    a big _if_ of an assumption... also a huge assumption that i am somehow 'associated' with Paul, which as a matter of fact, i am not. ~ I don't know him, aside from that he is a well-known developer. probably less than you could find by googling him. The only interaction that i have had with paul was a few times on the jack-devel list (spread out over a few years), once in these forums (recently, in the klang thread) ... So I am less 'associated' with him, than i am with the owner of the local convenient store (down the street).

    The midi stuff used to be really bad (earlier this year), but there came a tipping point where it became usable for me. I'm not entirely happy with some of the rough edges, particularly in UI, but that stuff will get worked out in time. Maybe, i am lucky or maybe you just keep walking off the cliff like a lemming into the same bug.

    But since you've (so arrogantly) have been shit talking their coding, etc - then how come you haven't come to save the day, then??? - i mean with all that talk, you should be able to just jump in and do it, right? (if not, then your a chump for talking the way you do!)


    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    Yeah buddy, I don't think my English is misinterpreting that he's given up on fixing some serious bugs before release. I'll continue using Windows for audio and keeping an eye on new projects, because the old projects have all proven to be failures.
    Ouch, so it's not your english, but actually just your comprehension... :\ You should have just said it was your english. The article wasn't about giving up on bugs, the overwhelming theme was concern over development within the project. ...and what approach they have decided to take. ~ hell, even what you put in bold is almost like quote-mining, it's almost like your not reading the parts around them...lol (that are apart of the same sentence or thought... are you slow or something?)

    anyways, rather than arrogantly crapping all over other people's work, bitching and complaining, whining, etc. Why don't you just go use windows, instead. I love writing techno in metro (they even rhyme. feel free to use that as a lyric, if you sing!)
    Last edited by ninez; 12-14-2012 at 11:02 PM.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    But since you've (so arrogantly) have been shit talking their coding, etc - then how come you haven't come to save the day, then??? - i mean with all that talk, you should be able to just jump in and do it, right? (if not, then your a chump for talking the way you do!)
    So now I have to have written my own, superior DAW to be allowed to publicly note that Ardour3 is an unstable piece of crap? Imagine if we lived in a world where the requirements for filing a bug or criticizing something was that you've written the same piece of software, but only better? You can apologize for Ardour all day long, but Linux audio will never take off until the applications aren't a complete joke compared to their Windows equivalent, and if Ardour isn't there after 7 or 8 years of development, it's never going to be. When Reaper or Ableton were 3 years old, they were lightyears ahead of where Ardour is today.

    Ardour seems like more of a scam, I was tempted to subscribe to donations back in 2009 thinking I'd chip in so I could finally break free of Windows, but thankfully I decided to wait for the actual 3.0 release before subscribing, which means I've never donated to them, and now I never will. What other project has demanded so many donations just to implement a standard feature like MIDI, and after years still failed to deliver it? As if I should give them money on the promise that one day they'll make their application useful to me.

    For that matter, he posted that release announcement over a month ago now, saying he was going to fix 2 more bugs then release 3.0. Does that mean another 6 to 24 months before 3.0 comes out? If 2 bugs are that difficult to fix for a fairly large development team, you've got code quality problems, it would seem that announcement was just to solicit more donations.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    So now I have to have written my own, superior DAW to be allowed to publicly note that Ardour3 is an unstable piece of crap? Imagine if we lived in a world where the requirements for filing a bug or criticizing something was that you've written the same piece of software, but only better? You can apologize for Ardour all day long, but Linux audio will never take off until the applications aren't a complete joke compared to their Windows equivalent, and if Ardour isn't there after 7 or 8 years of development, it's never going to be. When Reaper or Ableton were 3 years old, they were lightyears ahead of where Ardour is today.
    1st. At no point was i 'apologizing' for any shortcomings in Ardour's development. (yet another nonsensical, fallacious remark from you). 2nd You were talking 'a big game' and yes, being very arrogant and stupid about it (and still are) - but as you have just clarified, your comments have no merit. You see, in order to criticize other people's 'code' (and have your opinion actually mean anything), yes you do need to actually be a good programmer and hold your own weight, otherwise you're just some dummy, presenting yourself as knowing things that you don't... Saying it 'sucks' for whatever reason, is entirely a different story ( but that isn't what you did!). So, It's called have a little respect. Criticizing is one thing, being an arrogant self-entitled tool is entirely another. :\ especially, when your complaints do absolutely NOTHING to help fix any of the problems that you perceive, nor do anything to help 'linuxaudio' in any way.

    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    Ardour seems like more of a scam, I was tempted to subscribe to donations back in 2009 thinking I'd chip in so I could finally break free of Windows, but thankfully I decided to wait for the actual 3.0 release before subscribing, which means I've never donated to them, and now I never will. What other project has demanded so many donations just to implement a standard feature like MIDI, and after years still failed to deliver it? As if I should give them money on the promise that one day they'll make their application useful to me.
    It is entirely YOUR choice as to whether or not you choose to support or buy any project and/or product, but that does not make it a scam. But obviously, you like to spread FUD, when you don't get your way. ~ so sad... and as a matter of fact, they don't 'demand' that you pay for anything. (Yet another fallacious and obtuse remark, nothing more than FUD). Do you NOT know the difference between choice and being demanded / forced to do something?? ( i guess not, or you are just flaming). Projects like ardour (and many other OSS projects) don't demand money, but obviously people need to eat too. ie: the world doesn't run on your complaints!

    Quote Originally Posted by rudolph_steinberg View Post
    For that matter, he posted that release announcement over a month ago now, saying he was going to fix 2 more bugs then release 3.0. Does that mean another 6 to 24 months before 3.0 comes out? If 2 bugs are that difficult to fix for a fairly large development team, you've got code quality problems, it would seem that announcement was just to solicit more donations.
    'Fairly large development team'? not really dude... Just look at the commits, there are some contributors but not what i would consider 'a large team' by any means (especially, when you look at the same core people doing much of the development). Regarding these 2 bugs, i guess it never occured to you that they could be really tricky bugs to solve, and that not all bugs are equal? But hey, like i said - you should get in there - they could use your expertise, genius!

    The point is, you just keep making fallacious claims, have a totally smug/arrogant (without anything to back it up) self-entitled attitude (which is brutal by the way) with complaint after complaint and spreading FUD for something you are not even willing to contribute a single penny to, nor willing to apply your pretend amazing coding skills, project management skills and expertise.

    my advice, go write techno in metro and stop complaining.
    Last edited by ninez; 12-15-2012 at 03:14 AM.

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