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Thread: Systemd Dreams Up New Feature, Makes It Like Cron

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by duby229 View Post
    Sanity? Shell scripting is a very powerful tool that shouldnt be thrown out the window.. That is definitely insane to do so.
    Reliability? Sure if your running a system that has all the .system files that is needed. But what happens when you install something that doesnt? It happens alot. Not to mention all of the compatibilty problems that is still has.
    Standardization? It doesnt work on every distro even still, and then it doesnt work on every hardware that older init system could,. It doesnt work on every kernel that older ones could.
    Shell scripting is powerful but its error-prone, buggy to begin with (inherits environment), and a major pain in the ass to read. .service files on the other hand are simple, very easy to read, easier to parse, and dont have the problem of inheriting the shell environment.

    Missing .service files are a pain, yes, but unless you are running LFS, Arch, or Gentoo (Those three dont modify upstream packages), then if the distro is providing the software it should ensure that it has a relevent .service file, just as I would hope if they were using Upstart they would make sure it had an upstart file.

    Systemd works on any distro that WANTS to support it. Debian and Gentoo are "incompatible" because they want to be able to swap out kernels. Thats their problem, their creating a harder environment for them to work in and placing limitations on themselves because of it. If they want to do it, they are more than welcome to, but then they shouldn't complain when they cant use something specifically because of a choice they made.

    And what are you even talking about as far as working on hardware, hardware has nothing to do with it. If you have a kernel greater than 2.4.39 you can run systemd. SUSE 12 and RHEL 7 will both have kernels greater than 3.0, I think even Debian is above 3.0 at this point. So who exactly is being excluded here? People who want to run ancient kernels? I dont even think the 2.4 series is supported by upstream anymore (RHEL and SUSE may support them, but upstream mainline doesnt)

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by duby229 View Post
    And also dissappointingly enough even arch.. I liked arch, but this ruined it for me.
    Arch is about minimalism as well as being on the bleeding edge of technology. Like it or not, systemd is at the forefront of linux-tech right now, therefore Arch supports it.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
    I'm waging 3 lines of code.
    Youre quite off. But you will get another chance to prove your leetness. Why dont you join Bo$$, duby plus some other wackos and start a fork of systemd? May I suggest systemBSd?

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnc View Post
    Well there are certainly companies that do a lot of "work" that would be considered merited, but aren't necessarily foisting their work onto the Linux community as a defacto standard. I'm thinking in particular of Google. Not to mention it's not always clear if things are being accepted based on "merits" or other reasons (e.g., politics, etc.).

    As concerned as we are about software freedom and all that, I'd think people would be at least a bit tentative about having Linux consolidate around 1 or 2 companies. I mean I'm not crazy to think there's a certain risk there, am I?
    Honestly...google doesnt have all that much pull. They tried many times to get various Android features into the kernel and the developers shot them down over and over until they fixed the patches and made them right. And even now, some of them still arent accepted.

    Red Hat and Intel both make their livelyhood through Linux, both in the server space and desktop, so it wouldn't make sense for them to sabotage the development. Now, if Oracle had some big pull in the development, I would agree. They compete with Solaris, but its not Oracle we're talking about.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericg View Post
    Systemd works on any distro that WANTS to support it. Debian and Gentoo are "incompatible" because they want to be able to swap out kernels.
    Nonsense. They both offer systemD and you can run it if you wish.

    But they can't make it default because it would kill half of their ports overnight.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericg View Post
    Shell scripting is powerful but its error-prone, buggy to begin with (inherits environment), and a major pain in the ass to read. .service files on the other hand are simple, very easy to read, easier to parse, and dont have the problem of inheriting the shell environment.

    Missing .service files are a pain, yes, but unless you are running LFS, Arch, or Gentoo (Those three dont modify upstream packages), then if the distro is providing the software it should ensure that it has a relevent .service file, just as I would hope if they were using Upstart they would make sure it had an upstart file.

    Systemd works on any distro that WANTS to support it. Debian and Gentoo are "incompatible" because they want to be able to swap out kernels. Thats their problem, their creating a harder environment for them to work in and placing limitations on themselves because of it. If they want to do it, they are more than welcome to, but then they shouldn't complain when they cant use something specifically because of a choice they made.

    And what are you even talking about as far as working on hardware, hardware has nothing to do with it. If you have a kernel greater than 2.4.39 you can run systemd. SUSE 12 and RHEL 7 will both have kernels greater than 3.0, I think even Debian is above 3.0 at this point. So who exactly is being excluded here? People who want to run ancient kernels? I dont even think the 2.4 series is supported by upstream anymore (RHEL and SUSE may support them, but upstream mainline doesnt)
    Well, you just prove my point. They removed capability, compatibility, stability, and support and then said if you don't like these faults and want to do something else then oh well..... And this even though they have incorporated subsystems that are still needed outside of sysd.

    Thats the problem.

  7. #87
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    I don't care that sysd exists... I mean really its whatever floats your boat.... The problem is that they are making it difficult for those of us that don't like it and refuse to use it. The have incorporated projects that are still needed outside of it, and won't allow them to be easily used as they were before the incorporation. Forks are being made to correct this, but the point is that it shouldnt have had to be done in the first place.

    And as has been said it comes down to hostile management. An ignorant person with a superiority complex that refuses to see things outside of his own biases viewpoint. And has even gone so far as to call other peoples opinions "myths". I think his propaganda crusade is on the verge of going too far.
    Last edited by duby229; 01-28-2013 at 06:46 PM.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by funkSTAR View Post
    Youre quite off.
    2 then. That's 50% off.

    But you will get another chance to prove your leetness. Why dont you join Bo$$, duby plus some other wackos and start a fork of systemd? May I suggest systemBSd?
    No need. Systemd doesn't bother me as long as it doesn't interfere with using the computer, and I'll let Debian take care of that for me. Otherwise I'll look for a distro that better suits my needs, there's always a good one around.

    You're the religious psycho who wants to murder everybody who doesn't run unmodified Fedora, not me. Remember?

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by duby229 View Post
    I don't care that sysd exists... I mean really its whatever floats your boat.... The problem is that they are making it difficult for those of us that don't like it and refuse to use it. The have incorporated projects that are still needed outside of it, and won't allow them to be easily used as they were before the incorporation. Forks are being made to correct this, but the point is that it shouldnt have had to be done in the first place.
    The only subsystem they've incorporated is udev. And the udev-merger was backed by the original writer of udev, the then-current maintainer of udev, every main udev developer and all of the systemd developers. It was a good idea since systemd handles modules. You can still use udev without systemd just fun, no ones stopping that. Yes it may be a little harder since you have to pull udev out of the compiled folder but thats not your specific concern, thats the distro maintainers concern. And the only distros that have to worry about that are Ubuntu, Gentoo, Debian and Slackware. Everyone else IS on or WILL be on systemd by the next release.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericg View Post
    Yes it may be a little harder since you have to pull udev out of the compiled folder but thats not your specific concern, thats the distro maintainers concern.
    Sorry, but that's a big "fuck you" to other Linux distros.

    The problem is not moving it into the same tree. If Kay and others feel more comfortable there, that's OK But you can't even build it alone anymore, and this is by design. Patches were refused to fix this. It's a part of their plan to break Ubuntu, Debian, and others. Which they consider a "dead end".

    That's not a good attitude. That's all. At best, it's a total failure of communication.
    Last edited by pingufunkybeat; 01-28-2013 at 07:14 PM.

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