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Thread: KDE/KWin On Wayland To Use Server-Side Decorations

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by nerdopolis View Post
    I think the main fear with server side decorations is it requires more inter process communication, as the server side decoration would have to be sized up against the window as it's being resized, the server would have to resize the decoration surface as well. Not only would this increase IPC,

    And don't quote me on this, but I would also think that it would require the application to tell the server more about its surface, such as the window is resizable, or closable, so that the server (or separate decoration program, however it's implemented), so that it would know not to draw a close button on the decoration, or maximize button, or make the borders not re sizable.



    This being said, there would have to be a protocol to tell applications not to draw their titlebars for kwin to do this...
    I also think there are issues with syncing window changes, in general. IIRC, Owen Taylor wrote about this on his blog and was saying that that was one of the reasons why you can't drag a window around without there being some lag. I have to admit I don't understand why this is the case b/c it seems like the lag problem would of one of syncing cursor/input and drawing to vblank (i.e. compositor related, though I'm not sure what handles the cursor (maybe X itself thus you'd need to have X comunicate the position at a monotonic that is different than what the compositor is using for the scene?)). The other issue, as you touched on I believe, is that there is a texture separation between window contents and border (you know that gap tha between contents and border you get when doing wobbly windows?).
    Anyway, I really see this as a TK issue.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    try to use 'wobbly windows' in kwin or compiz
    I did, it looks fine. No artifacts.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
    I did, it looks fine. No artifacts.
    well, that seems very strange since the last time i used kwin was only 2 months ago - and it was certainly present then and i use compiz(bzr + have 0.8.x around), which certainly also exhibits the same behavior - furthermore, the vast majority of linux desktop related youtube videos showing off things like wobbly windows, also show it.

    it could be that it is less noticeable with your particular theme(?) this i don't know, but I highly doubt it has been fixed in Kwin (and i personally do not care enough to go and look) and i know it has not been fixed in compiz (nor will it ever be). So if you are talking about kwin, *maybe* but very unlikely has it actually been fixed, and it has NOT been fixed in compiz (but you didn't make it clear which you were testin?).

    cheerz
    Last edited by ninez; 02-07-2013 at 11:21 PM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    well, that seems very strange since the last time i used kwin was only 2 months ago - and it was certainly present then and i use compiz(bzr), which certainly also exhibits the same behavior - furthermore, the vast majority of linux desktop related youtube videos showing off things like wobbly windows, also show it.

    it could be that it is less noticeable with your particular theme(?) this i don't know, but I highly doubt it has been fixed in Kwin (and i personally do not care enough to go and look) and i know it has not been fixed in compiz (nor will it ever be). So if you are talking about kwin, *maybe* but very unlikely has it actually been fixed, and it has NOT been fixed in compiz (but you didn't make it clear which you were testin?).

    cheerz
    I've not seen these artifacts across 4 different systems *ever*: my home desktop (nvidia), my personal laptop (nvidia), the family computer (r600g), and my work laptop (intel). I haven't seen these artifacts when I've used compiz in the past either.

    Although it doesn't actually matter either way. One of the main reasons for Wayland is proper compositing as opposed to X's compositing as an afterthought. You can't look at something broken with compositing in X and blame it on only one part of the underlying implementation (server side decorations) when most/all of said implementation is suspect to begin with. You may even be right about server-side decorations being an issue (I suspect you're not), but this wouldn't be hard evidence of that.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
    I did, it looks fine. No artifacts.
    Here's a quote from Jasper St.Pierre paraphrasing the wayland architect

    I’m on the fence about server-side decorations. krh came to the office a few weeks ago to give an internal demo of Wayland, and I asked him about it. His reasoning was that with thing like rotating and scaling windows, it’s too easy to get a seam between the window and its decorations. That’s a perfectly valid answer, and I’m satisfied with it.
    If you’re worried about discontinuity between desktop environments and window toolkits, I wouldn’t be. I expect that we’re going to have a libwayland-decorations which paints (or gives us information to paint) window decorations.

    QUOTE=hiryu;311620]I've not seen these artifacts across 4 different systems *ever*: my home desktop (nvidia), my personal laptop (nvidia), the family computer (r600g), and my work laptop (intel). I haven't seen these artifacts when I've used compiz in the past either.
    [/QUOTE]

    I haven't used wobbly windows for years but I recall seeing them on both kwin and compiz. Again, IIRC, it is an inherent issue with server side window border handling.
    Last edited by liam; 02-07-2013 at 11:41 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by liam View Post
    Here's a quote from Jasper St.Pierre paraphrasing the wayland architect
    That seems pretty credible, but I'm still a bit incredulous. I've never seen this personally... at least not with kwin. I've seen tons of other issues, like jerky animations and what not even with very powerful hardware, but no seams with compositing in X.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hiryu View Post
    That seems pretty credible, but I'm still a bit incredulous. I've never seen this personally... at least not with kwin. I've seen tons of other issues, like jerky animations and what not even with very powerful hardware, but no seams with compositing in X.
    That's weird that you have not seen it before. It has ALWAYS existed in Compiz - and i have even chatted with compiz devs about it in the past (year) on launchpad (ie: it's commonly known to be the case).... and again, i highly doubt it has been fixed in Kwin - that's cool if it has, but i have my doubts...btw - did you or did you not say just one comment ago that you had also not seen it with compiz? (yet, now you're back-tracking saying "at least not with kwin" wtf? that's strange dude, kinda makes me question your 'credibility'...)

    you can also doubt me / think that i am wrong all that you like, but server-side decorations seem to be problematic. I'd (almost) bet money kwin is going to have this problem in Wayland too.

    also, 1st search on youtube for kde/wobbly windows shows crappy lines/gaps in kwin + wobbly windows... it's brief, but clearly visible. Start at 25sec into video watch as he moves Dolphin, then lets go of the window - you can clearly see window/decoration separation, it looks like crap. (but in using KDE, i've had it be much more obvious than this, for longer periods of time).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0xNzm4_3c0
    Last edited by ninez; 02-08-2013 at 12:10 AM.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    That's weird that you have not seen it before. It has ALWAYS existed in Compiz - and i have even chatted with compiz devs about it in the past (year) on launchpad (ie: it's commonly known to be the case).... and again, i highly doubt it has been fixed in Kwin - that's cool if it has, but i have my doubts...btw - did you or did you not say just one comment ago that you had also not seen it with compiz? (yet, now you're back-tracking saying "at least not with kwin" wtf? that's strange dude, kinda makes me question your 'credibility'...)

    you can also doubt me / think that i am wrong all that you like, but server-side decorations seem to be problematic. I'd (almost) bet money kwin is going to have this problem in Wayland too.

    also, 1st search on youtube for kde/wobbly windows shows crappy lines/gaps in kwin + wobbly windows... it's brief, but clearly visible. Start at 25sec into video watch as he moves Dolphin, then lets go of the window - you can clearly see window/decoration separation, it looks like crap. (but in using KDE, i've had it be much more obvious than this, for longer periods of time).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0xNzm4_3c0
    That was exactly what I was looking for on youtube and couldn't find it. I think I may've searched for "kwin" instead of kde.
    Anyway, as ninez says, around the :27s you can see a blue line appear between the menubar and titlebar in dolphin just after he stops the window movement.
    That may not be kwin, however.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by liam View Post
    That was exactly what I was looking for on youtube and couldn't find it. I think I may've searched for "kwin" instead of kde.
    lol. as they say 'proof is in the pudding' ~ so i thought it was a good idea to find an example (apparently, you came to the same conclusion, eh liam?)

    Quote Originally Posted by liam View Post
    Anyway, as ninez says, around the :27s you can see a blue line appear between the menubar and titlebar in dolphin just after he stops the window movement.
    That may not be kwin, however.
    Well, again - WMs/compositors aren't (by any means) my area of expertise, sure Xorg may be the problem / the way compositors work with Xorg but from what i do understand / have read - server-side decorations seem to be the cause of a lot of ugliness / issues on the linux desktop. (but hey, if i turn out to be mistaken / misinformed - that's great too).

    cheerz

  10. #20
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    First of all I find it hilarious that proper wobbly windows and rotating windows are the arguments for client side decorations.
    Those two are hardly important use cases to solve if you ask me, compared to the serious usability problems that will appear if one goes with CSD.
    For a proper working CSD each window would need to know as much about its surroundings as the window manager itself does, in order to make sane decisions, and then we are still talking heavy IPC.
    On the other hand, since the compositor and window manager are truly one now in wayland with no other layers causing problems I can't imagine it being that hard drawing the decoration and window content to the same buffer before doing the transformations, hence solving the possible wobbly window problem.

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