GNU/Hurd Plans For A Future With USB, SATA, 64-Bit

[frign]

Mostly agree with you, but don't go overboard on blobs. If you have the right hardware or just don't need support for certain features you can use Linux without blobs. If Hurd or whatever else wants to support the same hardware, it will be in exactly the same boat: use blobs or don't provide support, at least until some alternative becomes available.

Agreed; I personally also use the deblobbed Kernel source.
What wondered me the most is that obviously BLOB-dependent drivers like the BCM-TG3-Ethernet-driver still work in a deblobbed state (Luckily, my Ethernet-adapter has NVRAM), so everyone should attempt to get the most out of it.
For me personally not providing support is still a better alternative than having to rely on those binary-drivers; It's actually rather sad to see binary-arrays in the sources, not be able to understand or modify them to a certain degree.
With Linux turning more and more popular, it could definitely use its power someday to force the manufacturers into releasing free drivers (we shouldn't do this too early or else we would risk patch-forks).

It definitely is an interesting topic.

[tomato]

Agreed; I personally also use the deblobbed Kernel source.
What wondered me the most is that obviously BLOB-dependent drivers like the BCM-TG3-Ethernet-driver still work in a deblobbed state (Luckily, my Ethernet-adapter has NVRAM), so everyone should attempt to get the most out of it.
For me personally not providing support is still a better alternative than having to rely on those binary-drivers; It's actually rather sad to see binary-arrays in the sources, not be able to understand or modify them to a certain degree.
With Linux turning more and more popular, it could definitely use its power someday to force the manufacturers into releasing free drivers (we shouldn't do this too early or else we would risk patch-forks).

It definitely is an interesting topic.

It won't be much of a problem if the manufacturers themselves develop the driver to be included in mainline kernel. From my experience, the most irritating are the small problems (like weird default settings, memory leaks), stuff that can easily be fixed even if you don't really understand the source or how hardware works.

Though I agree that it would be best if they also released hardware documentation and either did not depend on firmware blobs or provided sources for them.

[Cyborg16]

With Linux turning more and more popular, it could definitely use its power someday to force the manufacturers into releasing free drivers (we shouldn't do this too early or else we would risk patch-forks).

Possibly, but that's still a little way off. Currently I have both NVIDIA and AMD graphics driver blobs installed (one installation, runs on two different machines), so call me short-sighted, but if I use linux I want to use a system that works decently.

Though I agree that it would be best if they also released hardware documentation and either did not depend on firmware blobs or provided sources for them.

And actually tested their code against to the specification.

[Pickup]

Lack of USB support?
No SATA drives??
32-bit only???

in 2013?!?!?

Does RMS know PCs got 64-bits 10 years ago, USB is the standard to connect everything, PATA drives are out of sale in most of store and SSD are all SATA or USB?

[frign]

Lack of USB support?
No SATA drives??
32-bit only???

in 2013?!?!?

Does RMS know PCs got 64-bits 10 years ago, USB is the standard to connect everything, PATA drives are out of sale in most of store and SSD are all SATA or USB?

I am glad you found out how to scale text in this forum.
Nevertheless, getting back to topic, I completely understand your point, but have to note here, that RMS is not directly involved into the development. He is just the one having worked on the specification of the Hurd.
SATA, USB and 64Bit might be standard nowadays, but moving the Linux Kernel to this point was only possible with thousands and thousands of active users and many corporations supporting the development.
Now looking at the Hurd, it is amazing how much these guys achieved with their relatively limited manpower. Stop complaining and start constructive work, though I am sure you will never reach the efficiency of the Hurd-developers unless you stop trolling all over the place.

[Nobu]

@BO$$:

Sometimes people like to learn, instead of working all the time. Sometimes learning involves looking at stuff that isn't necessarily main-stream, is different from other things, may not be fully functional or complete, and may never be in wide-spread use. This kind of learning can often lead to new and fresh ideas.

And trust me, working on a big project, like Linux, can often feel like work. And not every hobbyist developer likes to come home from work...to more work. Especially if it's a project they're unfamiliar with the internals of.

[Delgarde]

Now looking at the Hurd, it is amazing how much these guys achieved with their relatively limited manpower.

While true, the point still stands. Hurd might be a fun project for developers to hack on, but it's hard to see it having a future as anything more than a toy for those developers. Not if they've got so few people that both SATA and USB are still on the todo list... we're talking about something that will never boot outside of a VM or on hardware old enough to still support ps/2 ports and PATA drives...

[Ibidem]

Stop with the bullshit! GNU Hurd is useless. No one uses it! Hell it even still has memory leaks so it needs a reboot every once in a while. It's at the level of windows 98. The fact that is still in development just shows how many programmers are completely out of touch with reality. Why would you work on something that is a clear dead end?

All those devs would get better recognition and contribute better to the world if they would work on linux. But noooo, linux has blobs which are evil! So we must reinvent the wheel, worse, reinvent the square wheel, and say it's better since you can cd instead of use fuse. WTF? I cd into my ntfs dirs no problem whatsoever. If that is the Hurd advantage then I will continue laughing at that POS. It's not even positioned in the market. What need does it try to solve? Nothing. Just a random bunch of idealists building their kernel thinking they are some superior hotshot programmers just because they are different. HURD IS TURD! Chant with me.

You insult Windows 98: at least it supported USB and audio devices, and SATA could be made to work to some extent. :P

OTOH, remember it's their time they're wasting, not mine or yours. Just like the fact that I don't play any computer games does not mean that I have a right to criticize your choice to work on those instead of Firefox or FreeCAD.

BTW: minix has 2/4 done: SATA and audio; usb and amd64 are TODO.

[rvalles]

You insult Windows 98: at least it supported USB and audio devices, and SATA could be made to work to some extent. :P

OTOH, remember it's their time they're wasting, not mine or yours. Just like the fact that I don't play any computer games does not mean that I have a right to criticize your choice to work on those instead of Firefox or FreeCAD.

BTW: minix has 2/4 done: SATA and audio; usb and amd64 are TODO.

Via ddekit, usb actually works just fine on minix3. That's basically just running linux's usb code inside a minix driver.

[BO$$]

You insult Windows 98: at least it supported USB and audio devices, and SATA could be made to work to some extent. :P

OTOH, remember it's their time they're wasting, not mine or yours. Just like the fact that I don't play any computer games does not mean that I have a right to criticize your choice to work on those instead of Firefox or FreeCAD.

BTW: minix has 2/4 done: SATA and audio; usb and amd64 are TODO.

You don't have to personally play computer games. But if I make a game I make it with the intent of making some players happy. Not everybody will like it or play it. But the purpose is for others to use it. Hurd doesn't conform to that idea. It's not done for others to use. How do I know that? They are not focusing on what the users want. If they don't have USB it's clear they do not have a user focus. Focusing on what others want is both the way to learn and actually do useful things. That is why I consider Hurd useless and it's developers wasting their time when they could actually contribute to something that actually has a chance of being installed on a system.

@BO$$:

Sometimes people like to learn, instead of working all the time. Sometimes learning involves looking at stuff that isn't necessarily main-stream, is different from other things, may not be fully functional or complete, and may never be in wide-spread use. This kind of learning can often lead to new and fresh ideas.

And trust me, working on a big project, like Linux, can often feel like work. And not every hobbyist developer likes to come home from work...to more work. Especially if it's a project they're unfamiliar with the internals of.

Working on linux is probably the best way to learn how to do low level system programming. Why this dichotomy: learning vs working or playing vs working? I believe that the best way to learn to do something is to actually try to solve a problem people have. In fact contributing to the linux kernel has 2 advantages: you learn a lot AND you are useful (if your patches are accepted). Building things other people want is mandatory if you want to learn something about a domain. Building just things that you want might skew your knowledge in a way that might not be useful to others and when you finally go out in the real world TM and want to build things other people ask of you you might find out that your knowledge is severely lacking. What you call work is what I call being useful and creating things other people want. Working on the linux kernel should be extremely satisfying for a developer since they are contributing to something millions use and if things go right and windows goes down, millions more will use. Why is this thing called work as if working is somehow something negative? In fact, the more a project gets used the more satisfying the 'work' should feel.