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Thread: Upstream X/Wayland Developers Bash Canonical, Mir

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryao View Post
    I know that Kristian is no longer at Red Hat, but his Wayland proposal for the plumber's conference was published when he was at Red Hat.
    Yes, Kristian's initial Wayland development was done while he was still at Red Hat. He's been at Intel working on it full-time for quite some time now.

    And, while RH don't contribute directly to Wayland, the fact is we'd be screwed without them. They've made an enormous investment over quite a number of years (since long before it was fashionable) in the entire graphics stack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    [...]While it is true that Ubuntu (or more broadly gnu/linux) can 'out-benchmark' MacOSX in some areas (particularly OpenGL), to say it is way faster, is simply false... in fact, there are many areas where MacOSX destroys gnu/linux for a variety of reasons. Obvious stuff like ease of use/configuration, much higher quality applications (in vastly higher numbers), etc ...but any graphical designer/photographer, sound engineer/musician, video editor, etc used to using MacOSX (with their high-demanding apps) will laugh in your face, when you go on about Ubuntu like this ~ Ubuntu (and linux in general, is YEARS away from being able to compete in these areas). [...]
    As far as sound engineers are concerned. They like low latency and that also explains all the jack stuff. So those professionals do use Linux.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniels View Post
    Yes, Kristian's initial Wayland development was done while he was still at Red Hat. He's been at Intel working on it full-time for quite some time now.

    And, while RH don't contribute directly to Wayland, the fact is we'd be screwed without them. They've made an enormous investment over quite a number of years (since long before it was fashionable) in the entire graphics stack.
    Okay, thanks for the clarification. That still does not really substantiate ryao's attempts to paint that as a bad thing. I mean, would you say that Red Hat is using Wayland to enforce it's will on the free software community?
    Last edited by Hamish Wilson; 03-06-2013 at 11:54 AM.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    Okay, thanks for the clarification. That still does not really substantiate ryao's attempts to paint that as a bad thing. I mean, would you say that Red Hat is using Wayland to enforce it's will on the free software community?
    Yeah, I didn't bother replying to those for a reason.

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    I think MIR is all about the Ubuntu touch/phone, using Mir with Android drivers they can rather fast get it to work in the mobile/tablet market, but they are probably after unifying the Ubuntu lineup, and they know that the ordinary desktop market is harder to change, so they start pushing MIR on the desktop now and release Ubuntu touch with MIR later this year to make a second push for a unified ubuntu desktop/tablet/phone system, and it is a risk/chance they make it on tablets/phones, but I do not think they make it on the ordinary desktop system.

    But that is only my opinion/prediction of the future

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfred View Post
    As far as sound engineers are concerned. They like low latency and that also explains all the jack stuff. So those professionals do use Linux.
    While it is true that there are _some_ segments that do (use Jack/linux) whether they realize it or not. (ie: people using certain Modern Harrison Consoles, for example) Gnu/Linux still isn't that popular among musicians/engineers, in studios or any of that Jazz. Gnu/Linux doesn't drive that market, by any stretch of the imagination ~ Apple is the preferred platform and does low latency (with or without Jack, just fine). I've spent time in quite a few different studios over the years and attended a Music and Technology program in College. Most of the time, those types of facilities are Mac-based, with the odd one being Windows-based (or a combo of both). It changes a bit, if you get into film (where Harrison is very popular) but you're going to find very few studios on this planet (ratio-wise) to Mac or Windows based ones. (i would probably guess, less than 1%, if even that).

    Most of the places that you see linux being used in the Music industry as specific corner cases, like Harrison (who use jack in some products) or Muse Research (whom don't use Jack in their products). ie: specialized hardware with closed-source applications... Linux(-RT) is used and sure low-latency / realtime is there/important, but i think more to the point they tend to use Linux because it allows them to do things they can't do as easily with say Windows or MacOSX and linux has a smaller footprint - not because Linux has better proaudio applications (it doesn't), more variety (nope) or higher quality (nope)...

    ...and don't forget about how few proaudio vendors actually support linux (or are even interested in doing so!) and also how hit or miss support is for XYZ quality audio interface, if even supported at all. (ie: there are many audio interface drivers that are buggy + you only get some functionality ~ compared to Mac/Wind drivers). Plus, Low Latency also isn't the only concern (and may not be a concern at all, depending on what you are composing.) - you can have low-latency all you like but if your applications aren't upto snuff, then it doesn't really matter. (and obviously Gnu/Linux is fairly limited in various areas; lack luster soft-synths, for example).

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryao View Post
    It is their company. What their developers do is none of your business.
    Funny how those rules didn't apply to you when you complained about systemd. How hypocritical can one get, really?

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniels View Post
    And, while RH don't contribute directly to Wayland, the fact is we'd be screwed without them. They've made an enormous investment over quite a number of years (since long before it was fashionable) in the entire graphics stack.
    I'm sure ryao thinks that is bad... The anti red hat genome is strong among some of the gentoo devs.

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
    Okay, thanks for the clarification. That still does not really substantiate ryao's attempts to paint that as a bad thing. I mean, would you say that Red Hat is using Wayland to enforce it's will on the free software community?
    The only thing here that I consider to be a bad thing is the whining you and others have exhibited. What Redhat does to their distribution does not concern me.

    Quote Originally Posted by daniels View Post
    And, while RH don't contribute directly to Wayland, the fact is we'd be screwed without them. They've made an enormous investment over quite a number of years (since long before it was fashionable) in the entire graphics stack.
    The world is not quite so simple. Any contributions the OSS community have an opportunity cost, including Redhat's. Without the ability to perform a control and experiment with parallel worlds, it is impossible to know what that opportunity cost is. For all we know, there are plenty of other open source companies that do not exist because of Redhat. You cannot make such assertions when you understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by XorEaxEax View Post
    Funny how those rules didn't apply to you when you complained about systemd. How hypocritical can one get, really?
    I started my own project so that I would not be subject to their design decisions. This is exactly what Canonical has done and I see nothing wrong with it. The wayland developers have also done the same with respect to Xorg.
    Last edited by ryao; 03-06-2013 at 08:14 PM.

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryao View Post
    The world is not quite so simple. Any contributions the OSS community have an opportunity cost, including Redhat's. Without the ability to perform a control and experiment with parallel worlds, it is impossible to know what that opportunity cost is. For all we know, there are plenty of other open source companies that do not exist because of Redhat. You cannot make such assertions when you understand that.
    Good Lord, you really do bend over backwards not to give us credit for anything, don't you? Your standard line is that Red Hat isn't really 'contributing' but trying to 'control' things. When a member of a development community straight up says RH is a valuable contributor, you fall back on saying 'ahh, but if Red Hat didn't exist, maybe things would be even better!' Is it _really_ that hard just to grit your teeth and admit the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by ryao View Post
    I started my own project so that I would not be subject to their design decisions. This is exactly what Canonical has done and I see nothing wrong with it.
    The main problem people had with the decision was that it came associated with a bunch of completely inaccurate criticism of Wayland. Which was unfair in its own right, but more significantly, implied that either i) Canonical was genuinely doing Mir because they completely misunderstood Wayland (giant technical fail) or ii) Canonical was really doing Mir because they wanted to control their own display server technology rather than contribute to an existing one, and the inaccurate criticism of Wayland was a PR smokescreen (giant PR fail, because it was very quickly shot down).

    Canonical is free to create their own project, of course. No crime in it. It does seem like a disappointment, though, since pretty much every non-Canonical F/OSS graphics dev seems to think Wayland is the way forward, and until now, we actually had agreement pretty much F/OSS ecosystem wide to drive Wayland development. Canonical not being behind that effort any more is a shame. It's not immoral or criminal or a terrible thing to do, but it's a shame. Those five or six or whatever devs Canonical is now paying to develop a display server from scratch (or fork Android's, or whatever it is they're doing, I haven't looked at the code) could've been contributing to Wayland development, to the benefit of all.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryao View Post
    The wayland developers have also done the same with respect to Xorg.
    They really haven't. Wayland was started by an Xorg developer and enjoys wide support among Xorg developers. 'Xorg' developers are mostly just F/OSS developers who want to work on graphics, and from what I've seen, they all seem to think X is an old design that needs to go, and Wayland is what ought to replace it. I'm not aware of any Xorg lifers yelling DOWN WITH WAYLAND, or anything.

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