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Thread: Upstream X/Wayland Developers Bash Canonical, Mir

  1. #101
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    As for the "what would you push newbies to in the Linux distro world" question, for me it's probably still Ubuntu (and/or Mint).



    ....than hope either they really like it/serves their needs or they, like me, try new things and eventually discover the likes of Arch I'm an Arch guy all the way but I'd never recommend it to a new person to Linux obviously, unless they are of a certain mindset.

    On the other hand I hear openSUSE gets a pretty good rap lately so perhaps that's another user-friendly alternative.

  2. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
    Good Lord, you really do bend over backwards not to give us credit for anything, don't you? Your standard line is that Red Hat isn't really 'contributing' but trying to 'control' things. When a member of a development community straight up says RH is a valuable contributor, you fall back on saying 'ahh, but if Red Hat didn't exist, maybe things would be even better!' Is it _really_ that hard just to grit your teeth and admit the point?
    People usually only talk about things when they have a reason to complain about them. I really do not have a reason to complain when Redhat does things that I like, but I can list a few things. I like what Redhat is doing with KVM and Nouveau. The dracut and LVM2 maintainers are also nice guys.

    Anyway, having some level of control over development is part of your business model. It is how you get people to buy your services over those of other companies like SUSE or Oracle. No one would buy services from Redhat if Redhat was not in a position to fix problems when things go wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
    The main problem people had with the decision was that it came associated with a bunch of completely inaccurate criticism of Wayland. Which was unfair in its own right, but more significantly, implied that either i) Canonical was genuinely doing Mir because they completely misunderstood Wayland (giant technical fail) or ii) Canonical was really doing Mir because they wanted to control their own display server technology rather than contribute to an existing one, and the inaccurate criticism of Wayland was a PR smokescreen (giant PR fail, because it was very quickly shot down).
    The response was inappropriate. When people are wrong, they should be given a rational explanation why. In no situation is it appropriate to "bash" them.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
    They really haven't. Wayland was started by an Xorg developer and enjoys wide support among Xorg developers. 'Xorg' developers are mostly just F/OSS developers who want to work on graphics, and from what I've seen, they all seem to think X is an old design that needs to go, and Wayland is what ought to replace it. I'm not aware of any Xorg lifers yelling DOWN WITH WAYLAND, or anything.
    It would be nice if they treated Mir the same way.
    Last edited by ryao; 03-06-2013 at 11:00 PM.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryao View Post
    Anyway, having some level of control over development is part of your business model. It is how you get people to buy your services over those of other companies like SUSE or Oracle. No one would buy services from Redhat if Redhat was not in a position to fix problems when things go wrong..
    You do not need "control" in order to fix problems. Linux kernel for instance isn't controlled by Red Hat but Red Hat contributes the highest amoung any company to that project. and that does gain them more customers. What you really need for a commercial support and services business model is in-house technical expertise and know-how and Red Hat has plenty of that and you are relying on that regardless of the distro you are running. Same goes to a certain extend for SUSE etc.

    In any case, the primary problem with the way Mir was announced is that, the project page made incorrect claims about the alternative which have subsequently been fixed. They could have avoided that problem by stating the real reasons, technical or otherwise. Canonical is free to do whatever they want to but could have handled this much better IMO.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryao View Post
    Anyway, having some level of control over development is part of your business model. It is how you get people to buy your services over those of other companies like SUSE or Oracle. No one would buy services from Redhat if Redhat was not in a position to fix problems when things go wrong.
    There's control and there's control.

    Control in the sense that you contribute actively to the projects in the ecosystem and collaborate with others to ensure compatibility accross the board. That you have influence over the projects and are able to ensure that the projects get features that you need, but in a way that others benefit from them as well. That's what the GPL ensures: collaboration, without anyone having to worry about someone just taking and not giving back.

    And control in the sense that you have to do everything yourself and maintain a closed development process, forking or re-implementing everything. Not contributing back to upstream, instead forking everything and/or making downstream changes that only benefit you.

    Which is better?

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryao View Post
    It would be nice if they treated Mir the same way.
    It would be nice if Mir deserved to be treated in the same way. It isn't going to be treated that way just by default though, it is the Mir developers' responsibility to show that they have a good product. They haven't done this yet, quite the opposite. They have managed to convince people they haven't even done their basic research yet.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by garegin View Post
    I have a feeling that desktop Linux will be slowly dying. The main DEs are severely understaffed. Without quality gnome or kde releases desktop Linux will only be used by fans only. And don't say that xfce or lxde is great, because it isnt
    I disagree. The Linux desktop is and always has been used by fans only. Canonical is dying, having shot itself in the foot, the groin, and the heart. (So long, Unity.) The Gnome Shell (but not core libraries) folks have painted themselves into a lonely corner of irrelevance. (Hello, Mate & Cinnamon!) But none of this is anything new. Remember the XFree86 "crisis"? Entities in OSS make a name for themselves, get fat heads, and self-destruct. Always have, always will.

    Shuttleworth is just the latest casualty of success. And when his (doomed) play for a piece of the phone market fails, he's going to cut Canonical loose. The Amazon adware/spyware and Canonical's plea for donations makes it pretty clear that Shuttleworth is near the end of his patience. I do miss the old Ubuntu. But I won't miss the atrocity that calls itself by that name today. Good riddance.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlackCat View Post
    It would be nice if Mir deserved to be treated in the same way. It isn't going to be treated that way just by default though, it is the Mir developers' responsibility to show that they have a good product. They haven't done this yet, quite the opposite. They have managed to convince people they haven't even done their basic research yet.
    I was referring to the lack of "bashing" when I said "way". The idea that they need to convince people that they should treat others kindly is absurd.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ibidem View Post
    My favorite line in the whole thing...
    (upstart came first, Red Hat adopted it, then systemd came along claiming that there were technical issues with upstart. So this is almost an exact mirror, with the shoe on the other foot.)

    For the anti-BSD trolls:
    This is the first display server I know of to be licensed as (L)GPL3. I doubt it will be popular anywhere outside Linux (there, did I irritate anyone yet?) and Hurd.


    ...Meanwhile, I'm sticking with X11, and sysvinit (well, and bb init!).
    Used FreeBSD quite a bit in the early part of 2000 - 2002 and it was real nice NVidia drivers ran on it.

    Linux distro's will probably go whole heartedly into Wayland. Remonescent of how Xfree86 got sidelined.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryao View Post
    I was referring to the lack of "bashing" when I said "way". The idea that they need to convince people that they should treat others kindly is absurd.
    First, my point still stands. If Mir ends up being a bad solution, then people have every right to say so. If they feel Mir will hurt the Linux community, they have every right to voice their opinions. If Mir does not seem to be on track to accomplish its goals, it is perfectly acceptable for people to point that out

    You have no criticism at all for the Mir devs who opened up, right off the bad, with bashing wayland. This is despite the fact that every single one of their complaints was flat-out wrong and ignorant. But when wayland dares to fire back with criticisms of their criticisms, skepticism of them actually being able to pull of what they claim, and criticism of what they feel will be a negative effect on the Linux ecosystem...oh, it's so terrible, bashing should never happen, why can't we all just get along, the wayland devs should treat the mir devs with kindness. Not a word about the mir devs treating the watland devs the same.

    If mir devs didn't want to get in a fight with wayland devs, they shouldn't have picked a fight with them in the first place. You can't go around bashing other development projects then get all offended when they dare to respond to your bashing.
    Last edited by TheBlackCat; 03-08-2013 at 02:55 AM.

  10. #110
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    Wayland supports some, but not all, present day Android GPU chipsets.

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