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Thread: Mark Shuttleworth Goes Blogging On Ubuntu Defense

  1. #41
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    Default And if NVidia doesn't support/target Wayland...

    Quote Originally Posted by talvik View Post
    Not necessarily. According to the blog EGL has to be extended to support the display server. I don't think things are going to work right, if nvidia doesn't officially targets Wayland.

    Don't forget to buy an Intel CPU/HD GPU laptop/desktop/whatever next - for a percentage of the price you pay for such hardware goes to the salaries paid out to the people working on Wayland right now.

    It's capitalism at its finest here, and whomever has the biggest heft can influence outcomes and compete. Canonical, NVidia can influence certain outcomes. So can Intel.

    I was pissed off at this Wayland/Mir split - now I don't care anymore. We all have to make a bet one way or the other - I am betting on X.org/Wayland/Intel running this marathon to the end in one piece.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinN View Post
    NVidia will take every opportunity to piss on anything that Intel touches... Finally the curtain is up, we can begin to see the real show. If this has no driver support for Wayland in it as well, that is....

    Edit: If I am wrong, I duly apologize in advance.
    Well, I think Nvidia's business is somewhat dependent on CPU manufacturers (for obvious reasons). So while they probably don't like that intel has moved into their market, they need Intel / AMD / ARM in a pretty big way. (remember Apple only supports Intel CPUs in Macbooks + Mac Pro, as one example).

    Personally, i doubt nVidia would sabatoge Wayland, since afaict - in order to do that (if i was to speculate) they would probably need to not support extensions that are already a part of the EGL specification, or do something else like block Wayland in a very direct way ~ which probably wouldn't be a positive thing for them.

    I imagine (if/when) nvidia adds EGL support in the Blob, they will do it to spec + possibly adding some 'unoffical' extensions and/or performance hacks. but this is my opinion and just a guess. (since i am in no way affiliated, nor privy to their plans... time will tell).

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinN View Post
    ...We all have to make a bet one way or the other - I am betting on Wayland/Intel running this marathon to the end in one piece.
    I'm betting on that too. Canonical doesn't have much faith from me, compared to Redhat, Suse, Intel, etc - when it comes to producing good software.
    Last edited by ninez; 03-07-2013 at 03:34 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    Well, I think Nvidia's business is somewhat dependent on CPU manufacturers (for obvious reasons). So while they probably don't like that intel has moved into their market, they need Intel / AMD / ARM in a pretty big way. (remember Apple only supports Intel CPUs in Macbooks + Mac Pro, as one example).

    Personally, i doubt nVidia would sabatoge Wayland, since afaict - in order to do that (if i was to speculate) they would probably need to not support extensions that are already a part of the EGL specification, or do something else like block Wayland in a very direct way ~ which probably wouldn't be a positive thing for them.

    I imagine (if/when) nvidia adds EGL support in the Blob, they will do it to spec + possibly adding some 'unoffical' extensions and/or performance hacks. but this is my opinion and just a guess. (since i am in no way affiliated, nor privy to their plans... time will tell).



    I'm betting on that too. Canonical doesn't have much faith from me, compared to Redhat, Suse, Intel, etc - when it comes to producing good software.
    I doubt NVidia is sinister to thwart Wayland outright. That doesn't concern me as much as their indifference to support it unless they see something in it for themselves. Again, I'm preaching to the choir here - and I might act the same way if I was in their shoes, I don't know. From where I sit however, I would like them to assist Wayland as much as Mir, instead of shafting one for the other either indifferently or delberately. Though if NVidia does EGL right - theoretically speaking, both Wayland and Mir ought to work ok, regardless of the protocol differences between Mir and Wayland (correct me if I'm wrong here). Again, theoretically speaking... because even various ORB implementations of Corba theoretically should work equally due to the standard but we all know how well that went

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinN View Post
    I doubt NVidia is sinister to thwart Wayland outright. That doesn't concern me as much as their indifference to support it unless they see something in it for themselves...
    Well, how exactly have to come to the conclusion that nVidia is 'indifferent'. nVidia has been around for along time, they are a business and out to support their customers. So i think for them, jumping on XYZ effort to replace Xorg could just be wasted R&D, time and money - unless, XYZ display server is actually gaining traction and has a future ahead of it....

    I generally, interpret what you call 'indifference' as instead been 'cautionary'.

    Quote Originally Posted by MartinN View Post
    Again, I'm preaching to the choir here - and I might act the same way if I was in their shoes, I don't know. From where I sit however, I would like them to assist Wayland as much as Mir, instead of shafting one for the other either indifferently or delberately. Though if NVidia does EGL right - theoretically speaking, both Wayland and Mir ought to work ok, regardless of the protocol differences between Mir and Wayland (correct me if I'm wrong here). Again, theoretically speaking... because even various ORB implementations of Corba theoretically should work equally due to the standard but we all know how well that went
    I would expect nVidia (if/when) they implement EGL will produce a conformant EGL support in the blob. I also don't think that nVidia has any 'dog in this fight'. If their customers want/need an EGL driver and they deem this a worthwhile effort, they will probably end up doing what is good for their business. (which if both DS's have a sizable audience, supporting both via EGL (and adding extensions for Mir).

    but again, we will see

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    That's my view on this as well. Sounds quite hypocritical.

    I don't see anything that Ubuntu brought that isn't just as good on Mageia, for instance. Except for marketing, of course. And really, "I simply have zero interest in the crowd who wants to be different."? How about the decision to put the window control buttons on the left side of the window in Unity, and all the other things they did just to be different? Hypocrisy abound.
    I do wish Mark would stop pushing the line "just as we innovated when we created Ubuntu on a six month cadence." He keeps saying this, and it keeps not being true. Mandrake/iva/Mageia/Rosa (is that the lot? :>) was on a six month release cycle for, what, six years before Ubuntu came out? And RHL/Fedora was on a six month schedule too, IIRC.

  6. #46
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    Default Mark Shuttleworth Goes Blogging On Ubuntu Offensive

    Shuttleworth (to Riddell): "You, as one stakeholder in the Ubuntu community, are inviting people to contribute less to the broader project, and more to one stakeholder."

    Mad Libs version: Canonical, as one stakeholder in the Linux community, is inviting people to contribute less to the broader community, and more to one stakeholder.
    Last edited by eidolon; 03-07-2013 at 07:33 PM.

  7. #47
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    Default it's "/sbin"

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zanny View Post
    a lot of the Suse defaults piss me off (you can't run anything in /bin without root privileges, for example, which is.. dumb - I think they are improving that, though)
    Eh? I'm on openSUSE and /bin/cp et al work just fine. It would be worrisome if it didn't.
    I think Zanny is mixing up with "/sbin".

    In openSUSE's default, "/sbin" isn't in PATH (because it supposed to contain tools used by the super user), even if some of the tools can be meaning fully ran by a non privileged user:
    - /sbin/ifconfig, even without root privileges can be used to get information about network devices (although it still requires privileges for *configuring* the devices).

    Now I personally think that openSUSE is one of the best "average user" distros around. YaST is a very nice tool for configuring everything. It has nice out-of-the-box support for lots of things, and a nice eco-system of 3rd party repositories (Packman, Suse's own Open Build System, etc.) (And yes, Valve's Steam is already in the 'Game' extra repository, thank to a few guys who helped Valve and Suse get in touch)

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
    I do wish Mark would stop pushing the line "just as we innovated when we created Ubuntu on a six month cadence." He keeps saying this, and it keeps not being true. Mandrake/iva/Mageia/Rosa (is that the lot? :>) was on a six month release cycle for, what, six years before Ubuntu came out? And RHL/Fedora was on a six month schedule too, IIRC.
    You really expect anything less out of him though?

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamW View Post
    I do wish Mark would stop pushing the line "just as we innovated when we created Ubuntu on a six month cadence." He keeps saying this, and it keeps not being true. Mandrake/iva/Mageia/Rosa (is that the lot? :>) was on a six month release cycle for, what, six years before Ubuntu came out? And RHL/Fedora was on a six month schedule too, IIRC.
    Yes. The whole six month release thing came from Red Hat Linux which was pushed by Havoc Pennigton to GNOME

    https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedor...dule_Rationale

    Other distributions seems to have adopted it following GNOME's success in that model. In fact, I strongly suspect Ubuntu is on a six month release schedule because Jeff Waugh advocated for it

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Waugh

    Jeff who was a active GNOME release engineer at that point and was an early hire by Canonical.

  10. #50
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DrYak View Post
    I think Zanny is mixing up with "/sbin".

    In openSUSE's default, "/sbin" isn't in PATH (because it supposed to contain tools used by the super user), even if some of the tools can be meaning fully ran by a non privileged user:
    - /sbin/ifconfig, even without root privileges can be used to get information about network devices (although it still requires privileges for *configuring* the devices).

    Now I personally think that openSUSE is one of the best "average user" distros around. YaST is a very nice tool for configuring everything. It has nice out-of-the-box support for lots of things, and a nice eco-system of 3rd party repositories (Packman, Suse's own Open Build System, etc.) (And yes, Valve's Steam is already in the 'Game' extra repository, thank to a few guys who helped Valve and Suse get in touch)
    Yes, that's true. But if you execute "ifconfig", the command line actually prints this:
    Absolute path to 'ifconfig' is '/sbin/ifconfig', so running it may require superuser privileges (eg. root).
    So it's not just "command not found", like some root-only tools on Gentoo and such.

    And yeap. I'd say that Mageia is better as a beginner distro, as it does everything in a user-friendly way (auto-detect your graphics card -> present a configuration GUI, where one step is asking whether you'd prefer the proprietary drivers, while briefly summing up its pros and cons in a simple way, and also allowing to switch back by clearing a checkbox later on - just as a single example). But openSUSE is good as a more powerful and universal distribution, as it has a lot more packages, and YaST is more advanced (albeit also more technical than Mageia's control centre).

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