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Thread: KWin On Mir: A Solution To Non-Existent Problem

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    So, where in this does it say that KWin maintainer (or any maintainer) has to accept whatever patches someone else wants, or has to implement support for someone else's pet project?

    If Canonical wants Kwin to support Mir, they're free to fork it and implement it themselves, as it's free software. But they don't have any right to make demands to the Kwin mainline.
    If I researched correctly, Mir isn't even GPL, it's under some sort of commitment license.. Moreover, the Kwin developer *and pretty much everyone who does not work for Canonical* know that if they had only asked, they would have been able to find solutions to their "problems"

    Ubuntu's popularity could mean more work *depending on how far Mir goes* for the Wayland guys in making things compatible.

    ..Just forking Wayland would've been an easier solution than making your own bloody display server

    Also: "Canonical’s decision to keep development of Ubuntu 13.04 closed was also controversial. Although by releasing its code under a GPL license, Ubuntu remains open source by the Open Source Initiative’s definition, it violates the spirit of openness and transparency. Rather than working out in the open and accepting feedback on message boards — or code contributions through a system like Github — Canonical chose to work in secret, allowing only its inner circle to contribute. Some call this approach “throwing code over the wall.” It’s another sign that Canonical wants greater control over its open source projects." --http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/03/ubuntu-mir/

    The way Canonical is going: They'll end up makig some reason not to use the Linux Kernel anymore and make their own.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by TestingTe View Post
    Some call this approach “throwing code over the wall.” It’s another sign that Canonical wants greater control over its open source projects."
    I call it commercial intrest, do something fancy before you're obsoleted by competition.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Togga View Post
    I call it commercial intrest, do something fancy before you're obsoleted by competition.
    GNU/Linux was never about competition. Or anything commercial for that matter.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBlackCat View Post
    No, it doesn't imply that at all. It implies that people are free to look at your source code and do what they want with it. It does not mean that anyone else can force you to do what they want with your code, it doesn't mean you can't have policies about what is and is not allowed in your code, and it doesn't mean you can't have opinions about other peoples' code.


    It would be nice if you actually read the original blog post before criticizing it. He flat-out said that if it became something commonly used amongst distros he would be happy to support it. But just peoples' opinions that it might be in the future is not enough, it actually has to happen in the real world.


    First, this has nothing to do with the Kwin team, this is the comments of the Kwin maintainer. Again, it would be nice if you knew what we are actually discussing before you criticize it.

    Second, this is not some new policy invented specifically as an attack on Mir, this has been the policy for a long time now. Politicizing would be to ignore his own rules for the sake of one particular distribution.


    Martin is never, ever going to do that. He has been burned far too many times by people promising to maintain the code they contribute to Kwin and then disappearing, leaving him to maintain and then eventually strip out the code he was never supposed to have to deal with. Because of this, he again has a strict policy of not accepting any code he is not prepared to maintain himself. He simply doesn't trust such promises anymore, with good reason.
    The literal definition, yes, but not the Free Software movement has evolved beyond a simple source requirement. It has spawned a community based around offering choice.
    These statements contradict that ideal, and quite frankly only serve to further politicise a debate that doesn't need to be politicised because, it's simply software.

    I also noticed that you didn't mention the AUR port of Mir, actual proof that it's being ported to other Linux distros, unless that isn't 'real' enough for you.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    The literal definition, yes, but not the Free Software movement has evolved beyond a simple source requirement. It has spawned a community based around offering choice.
    These statements contradict that ideal,
    Choice doesn't mean that people are not allowed to have opinions. Freedom means, amongst other things, freedom of speech. You can't have freedom of speech if people are muzzled, if they are denied the right to voice their opinion.

    Free software does not mean that all ideas are equally valid, and it does not mean that a software maintainer or software community has to implement every idea and every patch everyone comes up with. That is not free software, because it takes away the freedoms of developers. That is not software at all, it is just chaos.

    And where is Martin's right to choose? For someone who is so gung-ho about choice, you sure are quick to deny people the right to make choices you disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    and quite frankly only serve to further politicise a debate that doesn't need to be politicised because, it's simply software.
    The debate was politicized by Canonical from the original announcement. If they didn't want that they could have handled things very differently. But everything they have done, every decision they made, every announcement, has only served to make the situation more politicized. It became politicized to the point where Martin simply couldn't stay out of the discussion.

    Again, if you had bothered to read the blog posts, you would know he had gotten inundated with emails asking what his position on the pre-existing debate was. So he answered the question he had been asked over and over. What do you expect him to just, just ignore the huge volume of email he was getting? What sort of maintainer just ignores his users?

    Perhaps if Canonical had handled things differently Martin would not have had to get so involved. Perhaps if Shuttleworth hadn't lied about Martin's plans for Mir then Martin wouldn't have had to correct him.

    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    I also noticed that you didn't mention the AUR port of Mir, actual proof that it's being ported to other Linux distros, unless that isn't 'real' enough for you.
    Yes, I didn't mention the experimental attempts of a third-party group just to get a pre-pre-alpha version just to build properly on another distro, because I was hoping that was more a rhetorical remark rather than what you thought was a serious case of another distro supporting Mir.

    Yeah, some people will probably try to build it on other distros. They did the same thing with Unity. Pretty much everyone gave up on that idea eventually because it was such a pain in the ass with little benefit. We will see how the similar efforts that are bound to occur with Mir turn out. If they get established then we can talk, but just someone trying to get it working hardly counts as serious support from other distros.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by TestingTe View Post
    GNU/Linux was never about competition. Or anything commercial for that matter.
    Welcome to Canonicals world!

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    I also noticed that you didn't mention the AUR port of Mir, actual proof that it's being ported to other Linux distros, unless that isn't 'real' enough for you.
    A lot of stuff ends up in the AUR - it is a system that is completely based on user submission with marginal review or quality control. I would be very reticent when it comes to taking that as any kind of third-party endorsement, and would definitely not take it as any kind of endorsement of the project from Arch.

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