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Thread: Building Linux With LLVM/Clang Excites The Embedded World

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc Driftmeyer View Post
    When you grasp the concept of patent troll and actually get off your own ass and patent something people think is worth copying, I doubt you'd have uttered such nonsense.
    I have a perfect grasp of the concept of patent troll, it's someone who weaponizes patents and uses them for profit and/or hurting their competition. Apple fits the bill like a rounded rectangle fits a rounded-rectangle-shaped hole.

    Anyone who uses software patents agressively is a patent troll by definition, as software patents are an absurd idea that should never have been allowed at all and are only used for anti-competitive, unethical purposes. The entire patent system (in both US and EU) is broken, partly because they allow software patents, but for other reasons too.

    If you still think patents protect innovation, you're either terminally naive or have swallowed the corporate propaganda of apple and its like. Patents do not protect innovation, they do nothing but uphold the status quo in favor of established corporations and actually harm innovation by creating unnecessary barriers to entry.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    Really? Where would Linux be without BSD (or the somewhat similar MIT) licensed software, like Xorg (or in the future Wayland) and many more?
    Don't be a hypocrite, remove those software from your Linux system and tell us again how strong your GPLed Linux is.
    Oh, you see, these days something new is coming. It looks like if things are taking shape. So I can see how the kernel getting responsible for basic low-level GPU operations. Then there are DIFFERENT clients attaching to these interfaces. Xorg is about to be merely one of them and it looks like if there will be others. Mir. Wayland. And maybe more. The most important thing is kernel thing itself and these interfaces. They're basis for everything else on top. And the most ironic part is that BSD guys are outside of all this activity and/or hopelessly lagging. You see, they're only starting to make KMS interfaces and drivers. When Linux had all this for years. It has come as far as virtually nobody currently considers BSDs as anyhow usable desktop platform these days. AMD and Intel do not really support BSDs in open drivers. Nvidia insists on using their blob. Which is a kind of landmine as well: should nvidia ditch BSD support, you will have no chance for override. Good luck with that.

    I'm finding it double-ironic that BSDs are in fact failing on desktops thanks to BSD-licensed software and vendors they were supposed to make happy. It has gone in really laughable ways. Nvidia has released blob-only drivers for ... Linux only. For their Tegra. Now what? BSDs are denied any chance on mobile hardware, thanks to vendor policy they supported. It's so funny to see how dumb nuts are getting their favorite policy applied to their very own butts. It's really gives a good laugh. In fact I think that most BSD supporters just completely lack foresight and unable to evaluate not so distant consequences of their own actions. Then it essentially turns out against them. I consider this approach "utterly stupid".

    No, sure, I'm agree that sometimes BSD license is a good thing. For example it's nice for reference algo implementation if you want your data format to become widespread and value data format spread over code improvement. Sometimes it looks like a good deal. But it seems to perform awfully bad for OS as a whole.
    Last edited by 0xBADCODE; 03-12-2013 at 05:10 AM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    Perhaps I want to share my code under more liberal terms, or under another copyleft license like the CDDL or MPL 2.0.
    The problem with the GPL is that it's 'The GPL way', or no way at all, at the expense of other copyleft licenses.
    Sure, as author you can choose any license. However, any decisions have their own consequences. As for me, CDDL is just pointless. MPL? Hmm, maybe. But GPL seems to be a best option if you care about others to commit back to your project. And as for me it's exactly what I would like to see: if I worked for others, it's perfectly fair if they'll do the same on the very same conditions. OTOH BSD allows some bada$$es to completely overtake control, close source and then you're as author could face need to buy your very own code as blob on completely moron EULA conditions. As for me I don't want such fate for myself. As I told, sometimes there could be exceptions when tradeoffs are different. But "by default" I prefer GPL as it proven it could work well. Especially for large projects.

    Also, your throw in about BSD systems and the Apache Foundation are unwarranted and unrelated.
    Sure. However overall license logic is somewhat similar so I make no real difference between them. Both are proprietary footpads, actually. That's why most greedy and closed corporations are sticking to these ones. They see they can't stop this process, so they at least trying to reserve some extra rights and powers over usual community members, etc. Ironically it seems to perform poorly since those who can write code are hardly could be called idiots and it's not that easy to trick them.

    However, if you do want something to think about, Apache Openoffice has gotten 40 million downloads to date of version 3.4, not bad for 'toxic waste'
    Not bad. However, their counting methods are questionable to say the least. But sure, if you deal with proprietary corps here and there you would learn how to spread marketing bullhsit. And I find it really laughable how oracle and ibm are shitting bricks after losing control over project. And they lost control due to very own stupidity and greed. That's what really makes this FAIL laughable and EPIC. And sure, you can use products from the very same EPIC FAIL guys if you wish. But I seriously doubt ibm/oracle management quality could be improved in such a short timeframe. So I would stick to LibreOffice. At least it completely lacks all this oracle and ibm management idiocy. It's a really huge advantage over Apache who proven once more they're just corporate footpads. And I can install LO without Java, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by LightBit View Post
    It is harder to write a good driver for AMD and Nvidia GPUs, because they are more complex.
    I guess this is debatable. And Intel already outruns both open drivers in terms of OpenGL features. Which are not very easy to implement. Say, they're usually 1-2 minor GL versions ahead of AMD and I never seen anyone who would dare to use nouveau for day-to-day use as it lacks very basic things (like reclocking). Seriously, you can't really use anyhow powerful GPUs without reclock. Just as you can't use anyhow powerful CPUs without reclock.

    Also AMD and Nvidia release new series of GPUs every year so they have a lot more work. Nouveau devs are even doing it for free.
    Intel also releases their new GPUs as well. Sure they have less troubles as they completely ignore discrete GPU markets. However, is a market and there will be no discounts. At the end of day it counts how it works. So you can't disregard crappy driver speed. But AMD guys seems to ignore fact that LLVM is unable to get decent performance for quite simple reasons which are hard to fix.
    Last edited by 0xBADCODE; 03-12-2013 at 05:16 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    Really? Where would Linux be without BSD (or the somewhat similar MIT) licensed software, like Xorg (or in the future Wayland) and many more?
    Don't be a hypocrite, remove those software from your Linux system and tell us again how strong your GPLed Linux is.
    In the same place it's now. There's nothing important from BSD that would change Linux' history. I probably don't have a single BSD licensed app and if I do, it's not important. GPL is the strongest if your not aware. BSD wouldn't exist without GPL GCC.
    Last edited by Pawlerson; 03-12-2013 at 04:23 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmalzler View Post
    The sanest OS is windows which is proven, because it's the most popular one.
    I hope I don't have to say more...

    And talking of LLVM being the holy CRAP - I hope you are aware of gallium using llvm. Open source graphics drivers (besides intel ones) would not be where they are if there wasn't LLVM.

    // edit:
    and my ignore list grows and grows...
    Nope, windows is the most f*cked up OS. It's popular, because of MS monopoly and few other things. I don't care about your ignore list, but I'm glad some moron will not read my posts.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by elanthis View Post
    A lot of people hate and despise Clang simply because some engineers at Apple prototyped the original implementation (which Apple released as Open Source, though they were hardly required to do so; what was that about nothing being contributed back under permissive licenses?), Apple engineers continue to do much (not all) work on it, and Apple hired some of the lead LLVM folks, or because it has a reasonable-for-everyone license instead of the GPLv3. Never mind that Mesa uses it, Google uses it internally, and so on.
    I forgot to add: it seems you don't have same problems with proprietary licenses, hippo.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
    I guess this is debatable. And Intel already outruns both open drivers in terms of OpenGL features. Which are not very easy to implement. Say, they're usually 1-2 minor GL versions ahead of AMD and I never seen anyone who would dare to use nouveau for day-to-day use as it lacks very basic things (like reclocking). Seriously, you can't really use anyhow powerful GPUs without reclock. Just as you can't use anyhow powerful CPUs without reclock.
    Well, I did use Nouveau (with 8800GT) and I am using AMD open source (with HD6750) and Intel drivers (with GMA X4500MHD).
    I can't play Minecraft on Intel. With Nouveau and AMD open source works fine.
    Last edited by LightBit; 03-12-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pawlerson View Post
    I probably don't have a single BSD licensed app and if I do, it's not important.
    So you don't have Xorg or it's not important?
    Or even this: https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/ke...fs/tags/v3.8.2

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBit View Post
    So you don't have Xorg or it's not important?
    Or even this: https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/ke...fs/tags/v3.8.2
    Other software with BSD or BSD-like license which possibly will be on your system:
    hplip (important to anyone with a HP printer)
    Ruby
    yasm
    net-snmp
    flex
    the uuid, et and ss libraries that are part of e2fstools
    shadow
    large parts of cdrtools are BSD and CDDL licensed
    sg3-utils

    This list is by far not complete, I just did a grep for BSD over the license files in the /usr/doc directory of a Slackware install (I have omitted Xorg related packages here), of course some of this will not be installed on your system (important tools like shadow are for sure), but in turn you might have BSD(-like) licensed software on your system that I don't have.
    Now again, remove that software, including Xorg and more important the shadow program, and tell us again how your GPL-only system works (if it does, which I seriously doubt).

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
    Sure, as author you can choose any license. However, any decisions have their own consequences. As for me, CDDL is just pointless. MPL? Hmm, maybe. But GPL seems to be a best option if you care about others to commit back to your project. And as for me it's exactly what I would like to see: if I worked for others, it's perfectly fair if they'll do the same on the very same conditions. OTOH BSD allows some bada$$es to completely overtake control, close source and then you're as author could face need to buy your very own code as blob on completely moron EULA conditions. As for me I don't want such fate for myself. As I told, sometimes there could be exceptions when tradeoffs are different. But "by default" I prefer GPL as it proven it could work well. Especially for large projects.


    Sure. However overall license logic is somewhat similar so I make no real difference between them. Both are proprietary footpads, actually. That's why most greedy and closed corporations are sticking to these ones. They see they can't stop this process, so they at least trying to reserve some extra rights and powers over usual community members, etc. Ironically it seems to perform poorly since those who can write code are hardly could be called idiots and it's not that easy to trick them.


    Not bad. However, their counting methods are questionable to say the least. But sure, if you deal with proprietary corps here and there you would learn how to spread marketing bullhsit. And I find it really laughable how oracle and ibm are shitting bricks after losing control over project. And they lost control due to very own stupidity and greed. That's what really makes this FAIL laughable and EPIC. And sure, you can use products from the very same EPIC FAIL guys if you wish. But I seriously doubt ibm/oracle management quality could be improved in such a short timeframe. So I would stick to LibreOffice. At least it completely lacks all this oracle and ibm management idiocy. It's a really huge advantage over Apache who proven once more they're just corporate footpads. And I can install LO without Java, after all.
    Firstly, there are points for the MPL and CDDL, the former is used in a situation where you want a weak copyleft but you still want to give the users the chance to put code under that license to a more restrictive one e.g. the GPL or AGPL, as part of a 'greater work'. The latter allows both static linking and dynamic linking which makes it desirable for libraries, moreso than the LGPL as that doesn't include the ability to static link by default.
    Also, in regards to your BSD statement, while there are a few cases where that has happened, more often than not the developer(s) understand the risk and still allow it to happen, as they see it as a freedom they deserve to give.

    Your second paragraph doesn't even make sense. I suggest you try and rewrite it to get your point across more effectively.

    Thirdly, while you may feel that way about OpenOffice, keep in mind that it is also undergoing a large change while they import the remaining Lotus Symphony code for 4.0, which I only see as a good thing because of the improved .doc support that it had over OO.o at the time. Currently, it performs very similarly to LO with the exception of a faster load time. Also, LO still depends on some Java dependencies, they haven't gotten rid of all of it yet.

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