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Thread: GNOME 3.8 Release Candidate Now Available

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2723 View Post
    Thanks for your post! Yes, it feels kind of "floaty"...
    Well if you ever try Gnome again, here's how to fix it:

    set the environment variable: "CLUTTER_VBLANK=none" (or add "export ..." to your startup file), then restart Gnome-Shell (Alt-F2, 'r', enter). IDK what kind of options area available to FLOSS radeon (I need Catalyst for Blender), but with Catalyst's AMD Control Center you have two areas of control. If you enable "Tear-free Desktop" it adds tripple buffering to the system (except on full-screen OpenGL windows), and eliminates tearing. The other area "quality control" or something like that, controls the settings for full-screen OpenGL applications. Usually I just leave the VSync slider in that area to "Off unless requested".

    There are two ways to get good performance tear-free graphics. Usually you don't need to set "CLUTTER_VBLANK=none" with newer Radeon (HD 4xxx +) cards. Just leave is as default, and disable "Tear free" in the AMDCCC. Remember to adjust the "VSync quality slider" away from "always off", or full-screen games wont use VSynce at all. I've found this to be the best option, but you will get tearing if you have two monitors that are different resolutions, unfortunately.

    The other way is to set the clutter_vblank var and enable Tear-Free. That works well (though not quite as good in my experience), and wont ever have tears.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    The reason why GNOME is dropping all these features, why they are getting rid of customization options (changing wallpapers and such) and why they are constantly breaking API for themes is
    They haven't gotten rid of the ability to change wallpapers and what not. The theme API does change but it isn't really intentional and more to the fact that the css theming is very new and still evolving rapidly. On some places, they have redesigned preferences (some things have been dropped and other new preferences have been added: ex: privacy features in 3.8) and extensions in GNOME now have very good support via http://extensions.gnome.org and subsequent releases will have the ability to auto-update extensions which should help when the extensions API changes. GNOME 3.x have incrementally added more functionality and while there are still quirks, I think the opinions from "conspiracy" articles don't have much weight since they take quotes from parts of the discussions from several months back without looking at the current status.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by F i L View Post
    Well if you ever try Gnome again, here's how to fix it:

    set the environment variable: "CLUTTER_VBLANK=none" (or add "export ..." to your startup file), then restart Gnome-Shell (Alt-F2, 'r', enter). IDK what kind of options area available to FLOSS radeon (I need Catalyst for Blender), but with Catalyst's AMD Control Center you have two areas of control. If you enable "Tear-free Desktop" it adds tripple buffering to the system (except on full-screen OpenGL windows), and eliminates tearing. The other area "quality control" or something like that, controls the settings for full-screen OpenGL applications. Usually I just leave the VSync slider in that area to "Off unless requested".

    There are two ways to get good performance tear-free graphics. Usually you don't need to set "CLUTTER_VBLANK=none" with newer Radeon (HD 4xxx +) cards. Just leave is as default, and disable "Tear free" in the AMDCCC. Remember to adjust the "VSync quality slider" away from "always off", or full-screen games wont use VSynce at all. I've found this to be the best option, but you will get tearing if you have two monitors that are different resolutions, unfortunately.

    The other way is to set the clutter_vblank var and enable Tear-Free. That works well (though not quite as good in my experience), and wont ever have tears.
    Ah that's great, I'll experiment around with the vblank/vsync options the next time I try it again.
    The FLOSS Radeon driver has a similar option, vblank_mode where you can disable vsync by setting it to 0, as it is enabled by default (by me at least).

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    Yeah, that seem like an over-reaction - but at the same time, almost anyone whom has used GS on a touch-interface will tell you something similar, myself included. ~ you say that GS was 'clearly seems to have touch screens in mind' only to then say even if it doesn't do a good job at using one.... that really makes no sense, dude. You can't even 'flick to scroll' in the GTK+ toolkit (very basic touch feature), but instead only get that in 'activities', wow pretty much useless :\ The lack of having hot-edges/corners (aside from activities) also severely blows. ie: Compiz being years older tech, actually handles touch much better than GS. assignable hot-edges/corners is one fine example. I can setup things to be touch friendly - at least from a WM perspective, in a much more intuitive way than GS offers.

    GS very well might have 'potential' on touch ~ but it really doesn't seem to be designed for it, without even mentioning 'input lag' at all. Toolkit support is very poor for multi-touch, and GS/mutter isn't optimized for multi-touch in any noticeable/usable way...I can only assume that you have never actually used GS with any touch devices.

    as far as gesture software, the best option for linux, imho - is 'Easystroke' ~ and there even exists a multi-touch fork ~ however, it is less than ideal for a tablet style interface and is a bit kludgy. I rely on it when using my Wacom tablet/stylus - where it works wonderfully, and is very powerful due to it's gesture recognition code, but I think for GS to be really good on touch - they really need to look at integrating some gesture recognition natively in GS.
    No, I haven't used G3 using a touchscreen, I said I tried it in virtualbox (and I have yet to know anyone who has set up a virtualbox host on a touchscreen device, though I know it's possible). You can make a product with a particular goal in mind but it doesn't mean it has to be good at it, hence me saying "it clearly seems to have touch screens in mind but doesn't do a good job at using one". G3 has so far felt very much like a WIP, much like KDE until it reached version 4.5. That being said, since running linux on touchscreens doesn't seem to be a very popular choice, I'm sure the gnome devs are holding that off as a low priority, though considering how the gnome interface operates, I would personally consider it a high priority.

    Anyways, I got the impression G3 was touchscreen focused because everywhere I looked I was thinking "this is unnecessary on a keyboard and mouse" or "this is really only effective on small screens" or "this is not ideal for a production computer, but fine for media". I didn't know there wasn't gesture support, I assumed it did, but now that I know it doesn't support it I can see why it would suck on a touchscreen.

    As for multi-touch support, aside from gestures, canvases, games, and OSKs, there isn't much of a need for toolkits to support multitouch. Gestures don't need to be toolkit based, so if the gnome developers ever get multitouch gestures working, that's actually a pretty huge chunk of "not touchscreen worthy" removed.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmidtbag View Post
    No, I haven't used G3 using a touchscreen, I said I tried it in virtualbox (and I have yet to know anyone who has set up a virtualbox host on a touchscreen device, though I know it's possible). You can make a product with a particular goal in mind but it doesn't mean it has to be good at it, hence me saying "it clearly seems to have touch screens in mind but doesn't do a good job at using one". G3 has so far felt very much like a WIP, much like KDE until it reached version 4.5. That being said, since running linux on touchscreens doesn't seem to be a very popular choice, I'm sure the gnome devs are holding that off as a low priority, though considering how the gnome interface operates, I would personally consider it a high priority.
    Well, i still disagree that gnome was actually designed for tablet use in mind ~ since it doesn't even cover the basics of what a touch interface requires, so i can't see how it could've been designed for something that it doesn't do. if they had covered the basics, even badly, then sure, i could see your point. but since they didn't do that, it really doesn't feel like a touch interface. it's kind of interesting that you would have a lot of input here too, not having any direct experience with multi-touch.

    Quote Originally Posted by schmidtbag View Post
    Anyways, I got the impression G3 was touchscreen focused because everywhere I looked I was thinking "this is unnecessary on a keyboard and mouse" or "this is really only effective on small screens" or "this is not ideal for a production computer, but fine for media". I didn't know there wasn't gesture support, I assumed it did, but now that I know it doesn't support it I can see why it would suck on a touchscreen.
    I'm not sure, without more specific examples, as to what you mean. One 'maybe' would be activities large icons for apps, but MacOSX launchpad does the same thing, and feels at home on the desktop.

    Quote Originally Posted by schmidtbag View Post
    As for multi-touch support, aside from gestures, canvases, games, and OSKs, there isn't much of a need for toolkits to support multitouch. Gestures don't need to be toolkit based, so if the gnome developers ever get multitouch gestures working, that's actually a pretty huge chunk of "not touchscreen worthy" removed.
    You can't easily have things like 'flick to scroll' without toolkit support (or possibly some ugly hack), as a side note: Enlightenment does have things like 'flcik to scroll' and it is done at the toolkit level.... imho, To say that a toolkit doesn't have much use for multi-touch is sort of like saying applications don't have much use for touch support :\ (which is silly). Just because your apps currently don't make use of that technology, does not mean there wouldn't be advantages in doing so, in that environment. On that basis, i have to disagree that gestures aren't really necessary for apps/toolkits themselves.

    it's true that you don't need gestures to be a part of the toolkit, in order to manage WM/desktop, but in apps themselves, it would probably be key which means having toolkit support. (ie: toolkits that don't support MT, probably can't except more MT input at all). Not only that, but you can build a compositor with Qt (as an example), so in your eyes there would be no use of multi-touch nor gesture support for the Qt developer, developing this Qt-based compositor??? (I think Qt developers would probably disagree).
    Last edited by ninez; 03-22-2013 at 01:35 PM.

  6. #36
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    It is nice to see how Gnome 3 is maturing. A big Thank You to all the developer who make Gnome 3 more awesome than it already is

  7. #37
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    I will take great pleasure in watching this release fail.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by schmidtbag View Post
    A bit of an over-reaction I'd say. I guess what I should have said was gnome 3 has the POTENTIAL to be a great touchscreen DE. It clearly seems to have touchscreens in mind, even if it doesn't do a good job at using one. Based on what you were saying, the greatest issues with G3 on a touchscreen arelaggy input (which could be a driver problem, not gnome's fault), the keyboard (which there are replacements for), gestures (where I'm SURE you can find a program for this), and struggling to click on things, which IMO is something any touchscreen device has, particularly anything with a screen smaller than 10".
    This wasn't directed at YOU, just your response, which I've heard over, and over and over again from oh so many people who clearly have never tried using it primarily on a touchscreen.
    Well, I won't argue about the gnomies having in mind touchscreens from a pretty early point (I'm going to lay most of the blame for this on Day, b/c I can), but the only things one can point to as actually being SOMEWHAT touch friendly are the relatively targets. However, one could, and they have, make the argument that large targets are simply easier to find in general usage, so perhaps even that doesn't necessarily indicate any sort of touchscreen intentions. However, some of them have actually said that touchscreen has been in mind for some of the decisions.
    As for handling touch input, android really made huge strides with holo ui. Buttons became flat and large sections (the best I've seen on any interface in terms of making it easy to target, and not being TOO big) rather than the beveled buttons leftover from the desktop era where you had precision mouse input. Oh course, android is way behind when it comes to making gestures central to the experience (much too button oriented when it comes to navigation), but I'm not sure anyone has quite nailed the gestures yet. It is a genuinely hard problem (but Windows did a pretty damn good job with it, but some of their gestures are just too brittle).
    The keyboard problem isn't likely to be solved anytime soon, either, given that malit was an option at one point (the dev seemed really eager to work with the gnomies, even to the point of attempting to get rid of all qt dependencies which I THINK has been done), and that had the best open source touchscreen input system I've seen.
    Xinput needs to be able to recognize that a gesture has occured (I think this ability was added with 2.2, but I'm not certain), and a library needs to map that to an action (that library has yet to be written to my knowledge, though a stub was created a few years ago by roderigo, IIRC). Before that happens, however, decisions need to be made as to what gestures should make up the vocabulary, and that is yet another area I don't think the gnomies are competent enough to deal with (however, as I said, it is a very hard problem and I'm not aware of anyone having "solved" it yet).
    Gnome is just so poorly managed it is slightly unbelievable. If not for RH I think Gnome would be in even worse shape than it finds itself in right now (BTW, I think that gnome has some excellent engineers, but they have some terrible leaders in that they don't make the best use of their resources).

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
    Windows 8 is actually crappy for tablet usage (for the record I don't like iOS or Android's tablet experience either) the gestures are confusing and unreliable (For instance swiping out and back in to get access to the application switcher is both not something you'd think of usually and doesn't always work, for instance in their game hub thing) and the interface just feels poorly designed for the purpose from my testing in electronics stores, but microsoft tablets have pretty much always been a joke even though they pretty much deserve the credit with Palm for having really developed the tablet. If you want to point to a design that was done right for tablets that you can actually buy from a store, you need to look to the blackberry playbook, because unlike everybody else they made a tablet that works the way you'd think it should work when you pick it up without knowing how it works (Which includes proper multitasking).
    I've used the Playbook, briefly, and didn't think it was particularly outstanding and the lag was annoying. Perhaps I should've played with it a bit more?
    I have used the Windows 8 tablet interface a decent amount and I do think it the very best I've seen (certainly not perfect, but there is much that is good about it). It is very smart about getting the chrome out of the way yet making the chrome easily accessible when you want it (an excellent browser interface, IMHO). The ease with which you can add windows is quite nice (I've not seen this elsewhere), and that is something that should separate the tablet experience from a phone experience and no one else seems to be doing it. W8 also is quite responsive. A bit moreso than android, but still not upto ios levels.
    That said, android could very quickly surpass it by adding a multiwindow mode like samsung has done, but that might not be possible without making some serious changes to their "window manager".

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallidus View Post
    I will take great pleasure in watching this release fail.
    Wow, that is a really hateful thing to say...

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