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Thread: Wayland/Weston Gets Forked As "GH-Next"

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by timothyja View Post
    Again I was never said they should integrate every patch, but should give feedback to willing contributors. Which is talked about in his post also.
    The background to this is that he was deeply personally abusive to most people he ever interacted with, calling us fucking idiots, assholes, telling us he didn't care about us or have time for our shit, etc. This included during the review process, angrily brushing away any constructive review comments (e.g. Jason Ekstrand and Pekka on the last round of the minimisation patches) as people with agendas attacking him, or trolling. So no-one ever wanted to review his patches, because even if you did feel like helping out someone who constantly abused you, he'd ignore your entire review and call you a troll - a total waste of everyone's time. Then he'd get really upset when his patches weren't merged, despite having either zero review, or unanswered (aside from abuse) review comments that suggested deep problems with the protocol.

    The only feedback he wanted was his code merged unquestioningly. Now he's got his own project where he can do that, and Wayland doesn't have someone to scare off potential contributors by abusing them for no reason, and has about the same amount of reviewed code ready for merge. I think it's a win-win.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniels View Post
    The background to this is that he was deeply personally abusive to most people he ever interacted with, calling us fucking idiots, assholes, telling us he didn't care about us or have time for our shit, etc. This included during the review process, angrily brushing away any constructive review comments (e.g. Jason Ekstrand and Pekka on the last round of the minimisation patches) as people with agendas attacking him, or trolling. So no-one ever wanted to review his patches, because even if you did feel like helping out someone who constantly abused you, he'd ignore your entire review and call you a troll - a total waste of everyone's time. Then he'd get really upset when his patches weren't merged, despite having either zero review, or unanswered (aside from abuse) review comments that suggested deep problems with the protocol.

    The only feedback he wanted was his code merged unquestioningly. Now he's got his own project where he can do that, and Wayland doesn't have someone to scare off potential contributors by abusing them for no reason, and has about the same amount of reviewed code ready for merge. I think it's a win-win.
    Hmm, ok fair enough then.

  3. #43
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    lolololol


    this guy got banned and got all butt hurt and then went to the mailing list to bitch and they told him to gtfo of the mailing list as well.



    wayland devs are cut from the same retarded cloth as gnome devs


    gnome 3.10 or 3.12 + wayland = full retard mode activated


    y'all motherfuckers better start investing on some chromebooks coz linux desktop is going to the dooooooooooooooggggggggsssssssssss


    wooooooooooooooooooooofffffffffffffffffffffffff

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by timothyja View Post
    I never said a project should just accept any changes. My point is you should encorage people who are interested in your project, tell them clearly if somethings not acceptable such as api changes. Most importantly put a proirty on giving feedback and integating the patches that are a good idea and improve the project.
    Put a priority? Something like this:
    With this we don't really have any major gaps or issues left with the
    1.0 releases. We may backport new features if the need arises or make
    another release if we find a serious problem, but for now I don't have
    any more 1.0.x releases scheduled.

    The next major release will be 1.2 (since we're using 1.1 as the
    unstable master version) and it's time to start planning for that.
    Some of the things I'd like to get in shape for 1.2 are:

    - Jans IM + OSK work

    - XWM split out as a client

    - Remote rendering functionality

    - Subsurface / surface group

    But we can jump into that next year... on that note: I'll be on
    vacation for the next two weeks. I might check in on IRC or the
    mailing list, but don't expect me to any real work, like reviewing or
    merging patches.

    Happy holidays,
    Kristian
    This came from mailing list, 14 Dec 2012.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by daniels View Post
    The background to this is that he was deeply personally abusive to most people he ever interacted with, calling us fucking idiots, assholes, telling us he didn't care about us or have time for our shit, etc. This included during the review process, angrily brushing away any constructive review comments (e.g. Jason Ekstrand and Pekka on the last round of the minimisation patches) as people with agendas attacking him, or trolling. So no-one ever wanted to review his patches, because even if you did feel like helping out someone who constantly abused you, he'd ignore your entire review and call you a troll - a total waste of everyone's time. Then he'd get really upset when his patches weren't merged, despite having either zero review, or unanswered (aside from abuse) review comments that suggested deep problems with the protocol.

    The only feedback he wanted was his code merged unquestioningly. Now he's got his own project where he can do that, and Wayland doesn't have someone to scare off potential contributors by abusing them for no reason, and has about the same amount of reviewed code ready for merge. I think it's a win-win.
    I would like to say, that these statements are very warped and do not represent the reality of the situation. I never called any of the wayland developers 'fucking idiots', 'assholes' or anything of the sort. I cannot say that I have never been upset or frustrated but Daniel Stone is making outrageous claims here that are not true. He says that I demand and expect all of my work is committed directly without review. This is not true at all. On the contrary, I've been harassed by Daniel Stone in private on IRC. He has often tried to tell me that he will not review my patches, saying he never will again, which is a frivolous comment because he does not do a significant amount of reviews in the first place. I expect my patches and others', to be reviewed in a timely fashion and scrutinized to find any bugs. Subsequently, I expect to discuss the issues and correct the patch to make the code better while strengthening my development skills.

    I am not self righteous, I do not have a big ego and I am quick to admit when I'm wrong. I cannot say I have not said harsh things because I have. I often times 'say the wrong thing' after becoming frustrated with the situation at hand, IRL or IRC. One of my big pet peeves are small patches that are neglected and patches that cause regressions. The product of diligent work in the form of patches are left on the mailing list neglected, not only mine but many others. I have noticed that community submitted patches are often neglected for long periods of time. Conversely, patches from involved company employee's are more often reviewed and accepted instantaneously. It pangs me to see this because the community is full of individuals with their own thoughts, ideas and views. Some individuals are skilled at communicating effectively in english. Some are skilled in other languages to communicate. Others are not particularly skilled in communication but have other strong points. The important part is to realize this and not discard ideas because they're coming from unexpected sources but instead embrace these benefits and channel the energy correctly. I expect people who have accredited degrees and work for top companies to set an example and lead the entire FOSS world, not excluding anyone.

    It is a known fact that I have trouble communicating my ideas effectively using spoken/written languages. I have found that it is easier for me to communicate using explicit programming languages that allow me to paint a picture ($refresh times per second) and convey millions of words to others, without using more traditional textual representations. Yes, it is true that in order to survive in the 'real world', you must possess a certain level of communication skills. Sadly, I find that it is exceedingly difficult to communicate effectively with others in a situation where the arguments are clearly one sided I have no control that would otherwise give me a real voice.

    I tried my best to adhere to Kristian's requests over the past year, through out this whole recent ordeal and even now I am still trying to resolve this matter. I have explained that I have nothing but respect for Kristian's works over the years and I am still willing to work with him/them. I would like wayland developers see Northfield as a representation of the powerful community resources that they have shunned. So far as Daniel Stone's comments here, I am appalled. There is absolutely no reason for this 'mud slinging'. This behavior is not unlike that of politicians, a collective group of people that are the #1 problem in the world in which we live today. Daniel's works for Collabora and I'm not sure that they would find his actions here particularly thrilling. I know that I for one, am not impressed.

    I can't go back and undo what has been said or done. However, I can try to correct the problem by communicating very clearly and concisely through code and visual representations I would like to present. I started on Linux when compiz hit and I felt absolutely invigorated to have the privilege of participating in such an impactive world-wide project. Sadly, compiz is dead for me. I cannot lead the compiz project because I am not extremely familiar with the intricacies of X protocol. In a way, I'm somewhat glad I never really took the time to learn X much. Now I've learned wayland protocol fairly well and it is a pleasure to work on compared to an X window manager. Even through wayland, X is back again through xwayland. Inside of weston, there is an X window manager for xwayland. Through trying to improve this 'xwm' code, I've began to learn and understand a bit more about the X protocol. In my humble opinion, it sucks.

    I would like everyone to understand that even though this 'fork' touches on many areas strongly, this isn't about wayland or compiz or northfield or X. This isn't about the core wayland developers, this isn't about me, this isn't about people not willing to communicate reasonably. This isn't about a compositing manager or even Linux. This movement is about the collective will of good people who have motives that are other than money. This is about people that do things because they enjoy doing them as a contribution to the rest of the global community. This is about giving people something to hold onto as a representation of true FOSS freedom. This is about us collectively as a group.

    Unless someone takes a stand and establishes a place where people can have an outlet to work on something great, we're just going to keep going around in circles. The specifics of coding and the actual result are relatively minor details. I want to create a place of special interest where people can exercise their free will, their ideas, their minds. I'm not sure why this movement is such an object of hatred by the group of people that are supposed to be representing these very ideas in the first place. It is nice however, that the wayland/weston code is available freely. This project stands on the shoulders of giants. Not only wayland and Linux and the driver infrastructure that has been carefully mapped out for it over the years, but all of the people that have helped create and drive new innovative technologies. Money does not make the world go 'round. Bright, intelligent, smart, aspiring people make the world go 'round.

    I will say briefly that Northfield *is* Wayland. I did not want to rename the project at all, I wanted to work under the umbrella of the rest of the wayland developers. I was able to do this for a solid year while learning many of the wayland/weston internals. However over time, I began to see the reasons for the slow moving development and it frustrated me because I know that I cannot fix this problem. I am a professional problem solver. I enjoy solving problems. However, I will not stand for a problem that I cannot solve. It is a personal pleasure to solve problems and sometimes even an obsession. The way I plan to solve the particular problem of community neglect, is by producing a project that will hopefully apply and keep pressure on the wayland, Mir and gnome-shell projects which are all display servers (or plan to be eventually) in their own right.

    I hate drama. I think phoronix is the very essence of drama. I have not had a phoronix account until today. I can leave the wayland project and work on my goals elsewhere but I cannot go without voice. The wayland channel/mailing list operators have taken my voice away from their project communication mediums through their ban, however I am not going to sit and say nothing while I am being chastised openly. It is unfortunate that they are costing me the extra time and money to establish my own project and server/site. The only thing I know is, since this project is held in such wide opposition, that can only mean that it is in fact the correct thing to do. This is not a fork, we're not changing the binary name, we're not changing any of the wl/wayland/weston names in the code. This project *is* wayland/weston, with a few extra fun stuff. I have every intention of encouraging people submitting patches to the northfield project, to also send them upstream to the wayland mailing list. I also have every intention of developing the code in a way that is compatible with wayland and weston. It is more difficult to do this when I do not have access to the public communication mediums that are useful for monitoring commits.

    Ubuntu was a great selling point for me because of its definition 'humanity to others'. I do not blame Canonical for doing what they have to do, in order to see their company survive. However, through this, I think that they have also lost site of the very definition of the word “ubuntu”. This is unfortunate but developing a one-distro-only solution is not likely to benefit everyone but instead cause more confusion to users. Northfield has and probably will continue to cause minor disruptions in the existing wayland community. I would have rather done this quietly under the wayland/weston names but this is not what Kristian wanted to see. He voiced this to me, I picked new names and apparently that was a problem too because I was banned shortly thereafter.

    I would like to now take this time to thank Michael Larabel for hosting and maintaining this site. I do not usually read phoronix but today, it has served the purpose of providing me a voice. So thanks Mike, I appreciate your continued work. I would also like to thank the massive community response I've received so far and continue to receive in the form of code contributions, website contributions and monetary donations. If you would like to contribute code or ideas, please visit #northfield on irc.freenode.net. If you would like to donate, you can use my email address paypal.

    We are working on a website that is already up but not disclosed at this time. It will take some time to get things set up due to the additional work I have to do, due to the requested split. Now that it has come to this point, I will be spending time moving forward instead of sitting still as is the current feature state of weston. I also do sincerely hope that after this is 'over' (read 'we have a wayland compositor fit for everyday basic use'), gnome-shell and Mir do finally turn out to be great and useful for all, including myself. I do not want separation or disruptions but if this is what it's going to take to make what I want to see happen, so be it.


    Thank You,

    Scott Moreau

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by valeriodean View Post
    Put a priority? Something like this:

    This came from mailing list, 14 Dec 2012.
    .

    No.

    Thats prioritising the projects next major work items. I was clearly talking about feedback to contributors.
    Last edited by timothyja; 03-26-2013 at 03:55 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by soreau View Post
    tl;dr

    no one cares, wayland is probably just another redhat clusterfuck like gnome3 and mir will probably be the more usable solution


    in 5 years all that wayland has to show is drama and bullshit

  8. #48
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    thx for giving some insight. Most of us I think or at least me, cant really say who was guilty of the fights. You said that you did make some comments you do regret.

    So maybe thats one site of the point why it did escalate. Maybe not maybe you are a nice guy and the wayland devs are asholes. Maybe you just dont tell the truth... its difficult to take a site for somebody outside.

    But I think a fork is not that bad. Why do you even want to upload stuff to upstream. its git, you release your stuff and if upsteam sombody wants it they pull it.

    But what I can understand is, that they dont want another window manager, its like the kernel-devs would make a c-compiler, it has something to do with each other, but you should like in the unix philosophy make a programm that does more or less one job and only one job.

    yes in gui world I guess that unix philosophy does not matter that much but you can also reference it to other stuff... you want decoupling in each software-design book you read stuff like that, and it makes sense.

    But ok its maybe not my place to critisize you for such stuff. I cant say how importent good your work is, I have no idea about xserver or wayland sourcecode or something like that, but it cannot do harm if you make something and release it.

    And if they said to you that you should fork your work (give it another name) and really did not want you allow a branch for a good reason, maybe they wanted that you to give it not such a official-sounding name like gh-next that implies that it is what gets integrated for shure in the future? Its really a bit sad.

    If you wanted not to change millions of lines of code a branch in git is very cheap... so why would you not allow somebody to have that. I can only speculate, maybe you wanted to get your stuff integrated in the master but they wanted not say you the 100. time that they dont want to improve this weston-thing further because its only a demo or testplace for wayland?

    But then again why the drama (or isnt there a drama) when you leave and make a forkish thing?

    To the poster above me, Gnome, was not a clusterfuck. Even the gnome3 haters have to agree that at least version 2 was a very successfull thing, that made ubuntu so successful, without gnome there would be no linux-desktop... kde never had nearly the amount of success than gnome had. And ubuntu wasnt so successful despite of choosing gnome as default desktop, but to a big degree because of the gnome projekt.

    And to insult redhat for investing most money into free projects of all distributions and so on, is just wrong. Stop fanboyism.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by soreau View Post
    I never called any of the wayland developers 'fucking idiots', 'assholes' or anything of the sort. I cannot say that I have never been upset or frustrated but Daniel Stone is making outrageous claims here that are not true.
    15:47 < hadess> soreau, i know how to report bugs, thanks
    15:47 < soreau> clearly you do not understand the implications
    15:47 < soreau> in reporting bugs or development
    15:48 < hadess> don't patronise me, thanks
    15:48 * soreau nvidiot senses tingling
    [...]
    16:28 < soreau> I DONT GIVE A SHIT what you ignorant people think about attitude, politics and a bunch of crap that doesn't even matter
    16:28 < reavengr1y> Right, that's true
    16:28 < soreau> Every single one of you against me are a bunch of fucking idiots
    16:28 < reavengr1y> True
    16:28 < soreau> let me see some source code, let's compare commits
    16:28 < reavengr1y> Come on fags
    16:28 < soreau> fucking dumb ass people
    16:28 < reavengr1y> let's see commits
    16:28 < reavengr1y> bitches
    16:28 < soreau> why don't you SHUT THE FUCK UP
    16:28 < reavengr1y> Yea
    16:29 < reavengr1y> homos
    16:29 * crazedpsyc facepalms
    16:29 < hadess> efnet!
    [...]
    16:31 < soreau> It's only entertaining to see abunch of fucktards talking random meaningless jargon after the Mir fallout seems to have affected everyone with canonical radiation
    16:31 < soreau> sick of this nonsense he-said /she-said bullshit
    16:32 < Darxus> soreau: FYI, not giving a shit about people is exactly your problem.
    16:32 < soreau> Darxus: You're a fucking idiot
    16:32 < soreau> /ignore Darxus
    [...]
    16:33 < crazedpsyc> soreau: I'm not against you, so you don't hate me, okay? Now calm down. For your own sake.
    16:33 < soreau> crazedpsyc: I hate everyone equally
    16:33 < crazedpsyc> oh, damn. okay
    16:33 < soreau> but idiots really piss me off

    That was a sample of 45 minutes of #wayland IRC. reavengr1y is not, for the record, a Wayland developer. Darxus (who is banned from #wayland-dev or whatever the Northwood channel is called now), is.
    Last edited by daniels; 03-26-2013 at 09:24 PM.

  10. #50
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    I expect this from a bunch of high school girls.

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