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Thread: Smart Scopes Get Removed From Ubuntu 13.04

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ворот93 View Post
    What a mess. You have neither market nor patents nor whatsoever in NK. Everything is public property, Stallman's dream.
    Uh no, in North Korea everything is controlled by the state. It's a totalitarian society. There's no such thing as "public property" in North Korea. The definition of "public property" is "belongs to the people". If property is controlled by the state, it by definition cannot be owned by the people.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Uh no, in North Korea everything is controlled by the state. It's a totalitarian society. There's no such thing as "public property" in North Korea. The definition of "public property" is "belongs to the people". If property is controlled by the state, it by definition cannot be owned by the people.
    In economics "public goods and services" = state goods and services. So the argument still stands.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ворот93 View Post
    Software is an effing TOOL. You don't pray to it, you are not religious about it. It should WORK.
    Almost. Free Software is a tool. With proprietary software, you're the tool.

    Quote Originally Posted by ворот93 View Post
    What a mess. You have neither market nor patents nor whatsoever in NK. Everything is public property, Stallman's dream.
    First, you're arguing against a straw man. FOSS doesn't mean elimination of private property.

    Second, you're asserting that intellectual property is a form of property. This forum isn't the best place for an IP debate, but if you want to convince people to see things your way, you shouldn't assume that they agree with contentious premises like that. Keep going like this, and all that's gonna happen is you and the people you're arguing against are just going to keep repeating the same shit back and forth, with both you and them thinking privately, "Can't help it if the idiots don't want to listen to reason."

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ворот93 View Post
    In economics "public goods and services" = state goods and services. So the argument still stands.
    Standard economic theory doesn't apply to totalitarian states where the entire economy is controlled by the state. Our economics are all based on market-based models.

    Also, what ^he said.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serge View Post
    Almost. Free Software is a tool. With proprietary software, you're the tool.
    Wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serge View Post
    you're asserting that intellectual property is a form of property. This forum isn't the best place for an IP debate, but if you want to convince people to see things your way, you shouldn't assume that they agree with contentious premises like that. Keep going like this, and all that's gonna happen is you and the people you're arguing against are just going to keep repeating the same shit back and forth, with both you and them thinking privately, "Can't help it if the idiots don't want to listen to reason."
    Well, too bad that things accepted all around the world are contentious for moon inhabitants on this forum.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Standard economic theory doesn't apply to totalitarian states where the entire economy is controlled by the state. Our economics are all based on market-based models.

    Also, what ^he said.
    Actually, command economy theory is one the basic economic models. It *is* part of economics.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Standard economic theory doesn't apply to totalitarian states where the entire economy is controlled by the state. Our economics are all based on market-based models.

    Also, what ^he said.
    Thanks for supporting what I wrote, dee., which is why I feel particularly bad about what I'm about to write next, but I'm afraid you are wrong when you say that standard economic theory doesn't apply to totalitarian states. The theory behind standard economic theory is that it always applies, everywhere, all the time, regardless of whether the people in charge want to believe it or not.

    Economics aims to describe the nature of the world we inhabit in impartial terms that facilitate objective decision making. Personally, I think that modern economics comes close, but doesn't quite hit the bull's-eye. But all that means is that we need to correct the errors in our modern economics, not that there are certain classes of state that are immune to economic theory.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    People like you are missing the point about free software. You're too young or ignorant to really understand the idea or what it has given to you.

    Try to imagine a world without free software. A world where every program is developed in secrecy and sold by corporations. Where there are no hackers or coders who do it for the sheer enjoyment of coding, instead only worker drones for large software corporations pushing code in a thankless 9-5 cubicle. Users are all demoted to the role of passive consumption, instead of active participation. You won't be able to control what your computer does, as you're only it's user - there's no ideology to support the idea that a user must have full control of their hardware, so every computer, every OS, is riddled with DRM and trusted computing schemes. If you try to copy files that are marked as copyrighted, your computer won't let you. If you try to save eg. video streams on your hard disk, your computer won't let you. Every time you try to perform an action your computer/OS manufacturer has deemed illegal, probably because it goes against other corporate interests, your computer just goes "I can't let you do that, Dave" and maybe reports you on some universal naughty list. There's no such thing as net neutrality, tor, piratism, freedom of speech - all is controlled by corporate interest. No peer-to-peer networks exist, everything follows a top-down passive consumption model.

    See, THAT is the world your "convenience" brings you. That is the cost of ignoring freedom. Free software is not a religion, it is a way to guarantee that the user has some power against the corporations, that the user is in control of their hardware and software. It's digital activism. Hacker ethics. Stallman might be extreme in his views, but it's good that someone like him exists, to bring a balance to all these greedy sellouts who'd forget their free software roots in a heartbeat to make a quick buck.

    Those who would give up freedom for convenience deserve neither.
    +1

    I seldom post in these forums, but i had to post to say "f*ck yes" to this.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ворот93 View Post
    Well, too bad that things accepted all around the world are contentious for moon inhabitants on this forum.
    That's the problem with bubbles. IP abolitionists visit sites and forums that already support their view, and hence have a distorted view of the world. IP maximalists visit sites and forums that already support their view, and hence have a distorted view of the world. There are incredibly few centrists in the IP debates. So, go on thinking that everyone outside of here believes that IP is a form of natural property. You are not going to make progress until you acknowledge the existence and proliferation of counter-arguments, and attempt to meet them in the middle.

    Well, actually, you are going to make progress, lots of progress, because your side has more lobby money to spend. That's not justice, or the triumph of logic, or whatever. It's just plain old brute force.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serge View Post
    Thanks for supporting what I wrote, dee., which is why I feel particularly bad about what I'm about to write next, but I'm afraid you are wrong when you say that standard economic theory doesn't apply to totalitarian states. The theory behind standard economic theory is that it always applies, everywhere, all the time, regardless of whether the people in charge want to believe it or not.

    Economics aims to describe the nature of the world we inhabit in impartial terms that facilitate objective decision making. Personally, I think that modern economics comes close, but doesn't quite hit the bull's-eye. But all that means is that we need to correct the errors in our modern economics, not that there are certain classes of state that are immune to economic theory.
    Well, you might be right, I'm not really that intimate with modern economic theory. And don't feel bad, I'm not opposed to being corrected when I'm wrong about something. Maybe what I'm trying to say is that the economic models that govern current western economic system (ie. capitalism) are based on models of free-market economy. Some assert that any central regulation goes against free markets, but I don't think that is true - a total lack of regulation would not provide a free market, as it would simply allow whoever has the most capital to control the markets. Fair competition is, in my view, prerequisite for a truly free market.

    How much the current markets are really "free" is debatable, though. I think what we need are better safeguards against corporate influence on policy. Currently corporations and their lobby groups can pretty much write policy as they want, and most politicians are simply acting as rubber stamps for them. We need to find more ways to incentivize politicians to cater to public interest.

    But this is getting a bit off topic...

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