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Thread: Is Valve's Steam Client Bad & Damaging For Linux?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by ворот93 View Post
    I am not sure anyone who writes here does themselves any favour. But let me do one for you.

    True reasons of Linux failing to conquer the desktop:
    http://linuxfonts.narod.ru/why.linux...p.current.html

    (written by another Linux user by the way)
    Okay this has nothing to do with Valve and is twat babble.

    Here let's stop all the retard derp derp stuff going on.

    No OS is perfect. Things work better on one or the other? Yeah including some things in a Linux OS's favor. Sorry all operating systems aren't identical!

    However you really should start your own threads if you're going to drum on this God damned argument some more.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by ворот93 View Post
    If Linux has been so über-competitive, where is the result? Where is the solution for bug #1? Show me and I will believe you.
    you ask a question to a quote where in the quote was the anwser to your question? is that clever or am I missing something, he said exactly why microsoft did stay in front of linux:

    which is why microsoft has resorted to underhanded anti-competitive tactics to keep Linux out of the desktop market
    normaly you try to ask a question and after that someone answers you, but where is the point in doing it in the oposite order?

    Quote Originally Posted by ворот93 View Post
    FOSS Unix-based OSes have been around 80s, a LOT longer than Microsoft Windows and had a *head start*. Explaining own problems with "Microsoft anti-competitive practices" is pointless.
    He talked about (GNU)/Linux and not unfree Unixes, Unix is not GNU/Linux!

    And why Windows was successful at that time is easy to explain, because nearly nobody had internet but everybody who bought a pc got a windows with it. Everybody used at that time 99.99999% of the people that os that came with the hardware, today its not that much better but at least 5-20% do install something different, or buy a pc without os.

    Today thats the problem number one for linux, pre-installed systems. 99% have still windows pre-installed. And then Microsoft maybe accidentialy pushed some else mechanic in the head of the people... because their System was so bad and especialy Buggy as hell (Blue Screens on daily basis), yes the newer windowses are better but pre xp it was like that. People just dont mess with their pc, they want to take 0 risk because they learned that it get punished hard. Many of them have 0 confidence in their pc skills.

    As example it was also absolutly impossible for a non-geek to install a windows again even xp was to hard for 99% of the users to install. because ok in xp it was better but still not that good, and before xp it was the hell, you had to download or find 1000 drivers you had to install after it. Than the software, you sit there a day to install your windows + drivers + some basic programms.

    Most people had that in their backhead, they dont understand that they only have to start installation with a good linux and go away for 20 minutes and back and they are at the same point. And they dont even risk anything because of dualboot.


    So basicly I think you nearly cant make that experience of "dont mess with a pc or a os or your pc explodes" that at least windows < xp did give the users cant be reversed.

    And even the real experience of installing linux is for many people to much, even its no big deal. So there is only one solution, peole must be able to buy them in computer stores... and not 1 dell pc from 1000 or so. And theres the next point, whenever that seems to happen, netbooks, Microsoft just makes illegal prices so they give their windows away at that point for free. What again did hurt netbooks because microsoft said then, that netbooks are not allowed to use other hardware than the first release basicly. or they dont give thier windows version for free to it...

    So long explanation. in a market that is free as in the stronger wins and you basicly have no laws and if you shoot somebody thats a ok because its freedom in that sense... for linux its difficult to success. But if there would be any laws to have a even field, as example you could forbit hardware-sellers to combine it with a os. Belive me the windows installer would become better than fast too.


    Yes than most people would instead of activly buyng windows in a seperate store somewhere or in the internet go to a supermarket and buy a linux-magazine with a linux on it. and install that.
    And if that would have happend 20 years ago, they would have more users then more companies would have switched because of that users, that would again had brought more users etc.

    So in a somewhat even playing field yes linux would today be the mainstresm desktop.

    And thats no extreme claim to have such free market, Stallman even wants that countries forbit unfree closed source software.
    What I also can understand but in todays world with dominant anti-feature-spyware-propriatary world with seen wrongly software as products, it would be a very big step. And many would fight that hard.

    So forget about that, just evening the playing field would be a big step and windows would be no big problem in a few years.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackout23 View Post
    NVIDIA GeForce Go 6150. Good luck installing a driver new that what came with my laptop and is available at the HP homepage. You'd think you can just go to NVIDIA.com and download a driver installer for GeForce 6000... No you can't. Well then let's look for N-Force since the Laptop has an N-Force Motherboard. Nope no luck. Well then let's run the piece of shit Java Applet to find the right driver. Nope doesn't work. I'm stuck with the driver from 2007 FOR GODS SAKE!

    On Linux i just install the driver from the fucking repos. 304.88 released just a week ago. End of story.
    Same card, same experience.. so +1 for me. You have to modify a textfile in one of the files the installer unpacks. And then add the driver string for your card just to install the latest nVidia driver for this. Did it once, wasn't funny.

    HP says that the drivers are optimized specifically for your laptop. I think that is marketing talk. Even if a driver is 'optimized' for your laptop, if it contains bugs then any deal of optimization is a waste of time.

    Have to admit that my experience with HP laptops has been pretty bad. Altough they have a good pick-up and return service (which I had to use 3 times). Don't know if that is good or bad though....

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexilion View Post
    Same card, same experience.. so +1 for me. You have to modify a textfile in one of the files the installer unpacks. And then add the driver string for your card just to install the latest nVidia driver for this. Did it once, wasn't funny.

    HP says that the drivers are optimized specifically for your laptop. I think that is marketing talk. Even if a driver is 'optimized' for your laptop, if it contains bugs then any deal of optimization is a waste of time.

    Have to admit that my experience with HP laptops has been pretty bad. Altough they have a good pick-up and return service (which I had to use 3 times). Don't know if that is good or bad though....
    Reading half-way through your post I was about to reply mentioning their pick-up and return service.
    I had to use them once. Wrote them an e-Mail in the morning explaining them my problem. 5 Minutes later I got a reply asking me, when I'm at home. Next morning guy picks up my laptop. Get it back 2 days later and a real person from HP calls me and asks me, if everything is ok now. Was pretty impressed. Aside from that I never had any technical problems with their laptops.

    On Windows 7 you can't even get basic Ethernet working out of the box on a regular Intel motherboard with Intel Gigabit onboard chipset. Better pray to god that you did not throw that fucking motherboard CD away.
    Who the fuck wants to have optical drives anymore these days anyway. My internet has higher bandwidth than my DVD drive which hasn't seen an optical disk in years.
    Yeah hardware support is pretty impressive on Windows. Linux could really learn something from Windows....NOT!
    Last edited by blackout23; 04-08-2013 at 09:29 AM.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackout23 View Post
    CanonScan LiDe 30. Have fun trying to get that thing working with Windows 7. Canon only has Vista Drivers on their page. Windows Update tries do download some shit and it gets recognized as CanonScan LiDE 30 but when you try to configure it Windows says there is no Scanner attached WHAT THE FUCK?!
    Vista drivers should work fine with 7; same Kernel version. If nothing else, it *should* fall back to the generic Windows printer driver.

    NVIDIA GeForce Go 6150. Good luck installing a driver new that what came with my laptop and is available at the HP homepage. You'd think you can just go to NVIDIA.com and download a driver installer for GeForce 6000... No you can't.
    http://www.geforce.com/drivers/results/57492 [Vista/7 64-bit, but versions exist for 32-bit as well]

    Some Laptop cards have ALWAYS caused some driver install grief because NVIDIA doesn't officially recognize them. The easy way to install generally involved modifying the .inf to make the install program think the card is supported. (see: http://www.sevenforums.com/graphic-c...le-laptop.html) Go drivers might be a part of the nforce driver install though, given how they are integrated chipsets...

    Well then let's look for N-Force since the Laptop has an N-Force Motherboard. Nope no luck. Well then let's run the piece of shit Java Applet to find the right driver. Nope doesn't work. I'm stuck with the driver from 2007 FOR GODS SAKE!
    To be fair, NVIDIA hasn't made nforce boards for about half a decade. And it doesn't look like they've published a driver since 2007 for that series. [To be fair, it IS Geforce6 based, which is beyond aged. I certainly wouldn't want to run Vista/7 with something that aged...]

    On Linux i just install the driver from the fucking repos. 304.88 released just a week ago. End of story.
    Ok, great. The drivers are supporting hardware that is basically functionally obsolete?

    Meanwhile, when AMD dropped support for the more modern 3000/4000 series, there was no grief from anyone here, because "they have to move forward".

    Anything recent? Plug it in, and wait for Windows to install the driver. [Though its funny when I uninstall a driver, wanting to manually install a newer version that isn't in the Windows repository yet, and watch Windows reinstall the old version...]

    I can say about 90% of my hardware does NOT have a working linux driver (by working, I mean 100% of the functionality of the hardware). Both my ASUS Soundcard (Phoebus) and M-Audio card, most of my USB devices, and so on and so forth.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexilion View Post
    Who says the community agrees with you on 'major details' (???). Your list will be part of the details if a community cares about the availability of the sourcecode and it's license. Why should we all evaluate it according to your standard?
    The community isn't going to completely agree on anything. I can say that water is wet and I'm sure people will disagree.

    It is a convincing line of reason to say that things like revenue split and basic rights over games are important enough that community advocates should have open access to those terms before voicing support of a service like Steam. Yes, people will disagree with that. I'm sure someone will say that Valve can take 99% of game revenue and demand devs forfeit all rights, and it's ok because they are Valve, but that's not a convincing case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexilion View Post
    Open terms of service does not make them 'good' by definition.
    Absolutely, but it does mean that we can logically reason about their merit and cost in public.

    Just because the price of a house is posted, doesn't mean that it's a good price, but that is a necessary piece of information to form your own judgement of whether the house is worth purchasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexilion View Post
    This is not relevant, at all. Why should Michael do that? He is a tech journalist. Not an advocate of competition.
    Why? If he has journalistic integrity, he would acknowledge competing views with his own and acknowledge relevant products that are not his personal favorite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rexilion View Post
    Rent seeking is being done when we talk about a monopoly. Valve has no monopoly, there are other games within the same genre. So there is no rent seeking.
    In economics, the definition is: "People are said to seek rents when they try to obtain benefits for themselves through the political arena."

    In this case Valve isn't going through the actual federal/state/municipal government, but they are banking on the Michael Larabels of the world to group together and enshrine them in a righteous position where they collect a percent of other people's game projects without doing any of the development or taking any of the financing risk.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by gamerk2 View Post
    To be fair, NVIDIA hasn't made nforce boards for about half a decade. And it doesn't look like they've published a driver since 2007 for that series. [To be fair, it IS Geforce6 based, which is beyond aged. I certainly wouldn't want to run Vista/7 with something that aged...]
    HP disagrees with you. My laptop came with Geforce GO 6150 and Windows Vista. Yes, performance was crap. I played Silkroad Online at the time, which was not playable under Vista. Under Linux (wine) it worked 5 times better (FPS) and wireless stopped dropping. That is the time when I decided to move to Linux for good and only to buy Linux supported cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by gamerk2 View Post
    I can say about 90% of my hardware does NOT have a working linux driver (by working, I mean 100% of the functionality of the hardware). Both my ASUS Soundcard (Phoebus) and M-Audio card, most of my USB devices, and so on and so forth.
    Yes, there are some open spots in driver functionality when it comes to Linux. Especially the GMA 500 was a painful experience for many if I read the posts correctly. Especially since it was advertised as an Intel, it was virtually unsupported (it still is, except for a basic KMS driver).

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanLamb View Post
    The community isn't going to completely agree on anything. I can say that water is wet and I'm sure people will disagree.

    It is a convincing line of reason to say that things like revenue split and basic rights over games are important enough that community advocates should have open access to those terms before voicing support of a service like Steam. Yes, people will disagree with that. I'm sure someone will say that Valve can take 99% of game revenue and demand devs forfeit all rights, and it's ok because they are Valve, but that's not a convincing case.
    (highlight authored by me)

    Let me *politely* put it this way: I'm not convinced. You deem the terms of service important, I don't. And I don't think that many opensource enthousiasts will embrace Steam, even if it's terms are 'logical'.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanLamb View Post
    Absolutely, but it does mean that we can logically reason about their merit and cost in public.

    Just because the price of a house is posted, doesn't mean that it's a good price, but that is a necessary piece of information to form your own judgement of whether the house is worth purchasing.
    That is part of my point. What if the price is not important, but the buyer wants to know how the house is constructed. Only to take the price as a less important factor whether to buy or not to buy.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanLamb View Post
    Why? If he has journalistic integrity, he would acknowledge competing views with his own and acknowledge relevant products that are not his personal favorite.
    Excluding information could be because either it is not known at the time of writing or it is not deemed relevant by the author writing the article. That is not a violation of journalistic integrity. The point of the article was to state the concerns of some people about the fact that Steam is closed source and what kind of consequences this could have. Whether to include or exclude other views or game platforms is up to the author. This was specific about Steam, so don't expect to find a survey of all other views and game platforms

    Quote Originally Posted by DanLamb View Post
    In economics, the definition is: "People are said to seek rents when they try to obtain benefits for themselves through the political arena."
    Politics? Where? How? Why? That is not the pure economic definition of rent seeking. Which, in my opinion, applies here since the subject is hardly political.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanLamb View Post
    In this case Valve isn't going through the actual federal/state/municipal government, but they are banking on the Michael Larabels of the world to group together and enshrine them in a righteous position where they collect a percent of other people's game projects without doing any of the development or taking any of the financing risk.
    Owwww, let me have what you are using... . I'm sorry, did we vote for Micheal for president? Did I miss something? (and thanks for the laught btw)

  9. #109
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    Default i think its not true

    Quote Originally Posted by Prescience500 View Post
    As a Fedora user, I can assure you're guess is very wrong. It took me a great deal of time to get the steam client to work. It also took a a lot of effort to get some of my games to work. Some of my games I still haven't gotten to work. There is a distro neutral approach. They could have a separate Steam install directory. Sometimes this would mean duplicate installations, but it would take most of the headache out. I promise you that no one without extensive knowledge of Linux will get steam running on anything other than a debian based distro.

    i dont know fedora, but i'm noob 64bit archlinux user (its not debian based) and steam works out of the box.

  10. #110
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    Steam bringing its content to Linux...

    Pros: It forces companies to pay more attention to linux.
    It brings more people to linux.

    Cons: It dilutes the idea of free and open source software - FOSS (why make something free when you can get paid for it?)


    Change of subject:
    Archlinux 64bit works great with steam :P

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