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Thread: Nouveau vs. NVIDIA Linux Comparison Shows Shortcomings

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by brosis View Post
    [B]
    Subliminal message: "We don't code, we don't improve, we don't want to organize anything. We just hang around, breaking stuff for fun. And we like to make fun of AMD developers. Because, they, unlike us, actually write STABLE CODE. We - either write mess, or don't write anything. Hell, we better off watch TV drinkin beers. Linux sucks anyways --.. and not because of us! Rly."
    Resolution: -

    Suggestion:
    Linus - Please REMOVE NOUVEAU out of kernel. Reiserfs is much more worthy of attention than this.
    Distributions - under NO WAY build or include nouveau. Use either VESA or nvidia. This is sure way to immediately kill your userbase with nvidia cards.
    Developers - unless you want to join Nvidia, its much better to join forces who actually CARE about code they write. That means on x86 - Intel or AMD.
    Nvidia users - under NO CIRCUMSTANCE donate your hardware to nouveau. Please, SELL it. At least, you will not waste your money.
    LOL, that was funny


    Quote Originally Posted by XorEaxEax View Post
    Bullshit, I've been using Nouveau exclusively for the past 6 months and everything has been running smoothly on both my machines (9600GT/9800GT), including 3d modeling/sculpting in Blender. Obviously I can get better performance of the NVidia binary but Nouveau is certainly 'usable'. .
    I'm sorry, but YOU are full of bullshit. You are using Blender and are probably refusing to use the Cycles rendering engine CUDA acceleration because of what ? code purity ? You need to grow up and realise there are programs distributed in binary form out there. NVIDIA is doing a great job with their driver, to the point it is the only viable solution for GPU acceleration on Linux at the moment.

  2. #42
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    @calim, thanks for responding! Thats a spirit responsibility already, so I am already gratefull to you!

    Quote Originally Posted by calim View Post
    The subliminal message was more along the lines of "If it doesn't work, fix it !" I'm trying to get people to contribute but they're awfully resistant. Maybe that's not the right way. But then, if everything worked, who would feel the need to ... and having a workaround lowers the pain and hence the incentive to find a proper fix. NOTE: My opinion, not that of the whole nouveau team.
    Not everyone is kernel developer.
    But nearly everyone who owns the hardware would prefer opensource drivers.
    The majority can contribute by other ways. If you find those ways, outline them clearly and advertise that efficiently directly to hardware card owners, that involves visiting every major OS meeting point, that is supported by your driver, and posting a clear message.
    Then, let the users carry the decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by calim View Post
    That was just speaking for myself. I do care about the quality, but I'm restricting myself to working on mesa, so I'll rarely fix the kinds of things that need to be done in the kernel. That's the other guy's job. Unless it affects my card then I can't resist.
    Your team spirit is sure way bugged and waiting for a fix.
    Without team spirit, you can't build a solid house, every wall will be different.

    Quote Originally Posted by calim View Post
    Well, sometimes I feel like that. When the userbase tell me I'm spending so much free time on something pointless I get angry at them.
    You should be clear that you spend your time on what you consider to be right for you and nobody can influence that.
    However, even if you do "real job" or "develop nouveau", it doesn't matter - you accept responsibility for exchange of monetary compensation.

    If you do this purely for own enjoyment, please be respectfull to users,.. or at least have some mercy and do NOT drop unstable code upstream.
    And if you lack any motivation to switch hobby to job and unstable to production stable, please ask hardware owners. They are the ones who want stable code, so they help you. Just talk to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by calim View Post
    Accepting cards means accepting responsibility to get them working. I'm having a hard time resisting to work on nouveau and focusing on the things I'm *supposed* to be doing already, if I had users' cards lying around pressuring me to fix them that'd be even harder.
    Under no condition should acceptal of hardware be bound to requirement to make it working.
    Perhaps you (or nouveau) should make it clear, that hardware donations form only the hardware park for the team. Nothing else.
    Donations are always free will! But, of course, if the project is NOT moving in perceptable direction, the justification to donate (by smearing the wheels of the project) will fade accordingly.

    If you have "no time", "I have better things to do" etc, which is adult word for "I am lazy", please elaborate on what you need to motivate you.
    Because you either work on it or its left broken. I am sure many many hardware owners at distribution forums WILL support you, but those support IS binding, so be realistic and let users decide if they accept your price.

    Thank you!

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by brosis View Post
    If you have "no time", "I have better things to do" etc, which is adult word for "I am lazy", please elaborate on what you need to motivate you. Because you either work on it or its left broken. I am sure many many hardware owners at distribution forums WILL support you, but those support IS binding, so be realistic and let users decide if they accept your price.
    "no time" in no way equates to being lazy. There are a limited number of hours in the day, and sleeping, eating and working your employer generally take priority. No matter how much I want to work on/contribute to X, Y and Z, there's a limit to how much time I can devote to them.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by archibald View Post
    "no time" in no way equates to being lazy. There are a limited number of hours in the day, and sleeping, eating and working your employer generally take priority. No matter how much I want to work on/contribute to X, Y and Z, there's a limit to how much time I can devote to them.
    Yes, "no time" equals "lazy" polite form. Its psychology proved reference.
    Young children say "I don't like it" meaning they would do something else.
    Adults say "I don't have time" meaning they would do something else.
    "Lazy here" means "busy elsewhere", including doing "nothing".

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by brent View Post
    calim, to get back to the GT 240 issue - why are you apparently opposed to accepting a workaround? I know that sometimes it's not wise to include hacks, because with a workaround in place there is less pressure to come up with an actual solution. But this has been broken for what now, two years?
    For most cards there seem to be people with issues ... my GTX680 works perfectly fine, for Michael it seems not to. Should we disable acceleration for everything except, say, whatever works for him ? And how would we notice if things started working [again] ? Maybe we should, to make it obvious to us how broken things really are. But not my decision. I'll ask, at least about the 240.

    Anyway, you're right we should focus more on stability and be nicer to users. But it's hard, especially when you're on a feature frenzy (need. to. get. reclocking/<GL extension>. working. argh !)

    I guess a test lab that regularly checks if all cards are still working would be nice. And someone to fix them when they aren't. I'll hire someone for that in case I win the lottery.
    Last edited by calim; 04-24-2013 at 02:02 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by calim View Post
    I guess a test lab that regularly checks if all cards are still working would be nice. And someone to fix them when they aren't. I'll hire someone for that in case I win the lottery.
    To create serious things, you need serious attitude and serious base. Lottery has high chance to fail, so will everything built on top of it. There is no magic.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by calim View Post
    For most cards there seem to be people with issues ... my GTX680 works perfectly fine, for Michael it seems not to. Should we disable acceleration for everything except, say, whatever works for him ? And how would we notice if things started working [again] ? Maybe we should, to make it obvious to us how broken things really are. But not my decision. I'll ask, at least about the 240.

    Anyway, you're right we should focus more on stability and be nicer to users. But it's hard, especially when you're on a feature frenzy (need. to. get. reclocking/<GL extension>. working. argh !)

    I guess a test lab that regularly checks if all cards are still working would be nice. And someone to fix them when they aren't. I'll hire someone for that in case I win the lottery.
    I remember Michael saying that the GTX680 worked with a previous version of Nouveau until this test was run with the latest upstream drivers. Not to question your setup, but is your working version of Nouveau the same as his?

    Another possible thought just occurred to me about the GTX680: what if one of you were actually using a non-reference card? Michael never went into the specifics of his hardware; he just said it was a GTX680. And we all know that there are quite a handful of graphics cards vendors marketing the GTX680, some even with non-reference designs and specifications such as being factory-overvolted/overclocked or something else. Could that be a factor for one GTX680 working in the Nouveau drivers but another GTX680 failing to do so?

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by brosis View Post
    Yes, "no time" equals "lazy" polite form. Its psychology proved reference.
    Young children say "I don't like it" meaning they would do something else.
    Adults say "I don't have time" meaning they would do something else.
    "Lazy here" means "busy elsewhere", including doing "nothing".
    I have no / too little time to implement the tons of shader compiler optimizations I'd really like to implement to make things faster.
    I have no time for tuning and tweaking performance for various GL applications.
    I have no time to reverse engineer and implement changing clock speeds (but luckily someone else is doing that, it's called "specialization", not lack of team spirit).
    I have no time to (re-)implement / fix the Direct3D 1x state tracker so I can finally play some of those games with "native" performance (even if that's pointless with the current native performance of nouveau).

    But ...
    I have time to implement new OpenGL extensions for nouveau as mesa acquires them.
    I (will hopefully at some point) have time to make multi-threaded gallium contexts work.
    I have time to discuss gallium interface changes so things are more easily and naturally implementable for all drivers.
    I have time for eating (sometimes I skip that though).
    I have time for other hobbies like sports to compensate for the hours I spend sitting in front of a screen.

    I guess the fact that the day just has 24 hours and the weekend only 2 days proves that I'm lazy.

  9. #49
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    And I have time to post on phoronix forums ... something doesn't add up.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by calim View Post
    And I have time to post on phoronix forums ... something doesn't add up.
    Start multitasking... in a single instance or hypertasking. With a good scheduler and reliable cache : )

    Thats said, I respect your scheduler and thankfully disconnect. More lazy here means more busy elsewhere, hope I introduced something worthy to your cache though...

    regards

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