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Thread: Ubuntu's Mir Moves Ahead With Unity 8 Interface

  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by smitty3268 View Post
    Arch isn't a newbie friendly distro, but there are plenty besides Ubuntu. I happen to think OpenSuse, for example, is easier for someone from windows to use than Ubuntu. And nobody would have any more trouble on Fedora, or several other possibilities.

    On another note - wow. I can't believe all you guys have been trolling each other for 13 pages of comments now. I feel like i've wasted a ton of time just skimming through a few of them. Do you guys really have nothing better to do?

    /troll on
    Mageia is the go-to distribution for migrating users. It was made specifically with user friendliness in mind (while also having advanced functionality when needed), and by default uses KDE, which is familiar to the people.

    Yea, it's mostly BO$$. It's just that everyone seems to like countering his trolling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    Mageia is the go-to distribution for migrating users. It was made specifically with user friendliness in mind (while also having advanced functionality when needed), and by default uses KDE, which is familiar to the people.

    Yea, it's mostly BO$$. It's just that everyone seems to like countering his trolling.
    We know we shouldn't feed him, but the poor guy looks so hungry...

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    but Ubuntu is still a solid OS
    Yeah, so solid that even Canonical recommended to LTS users not to upgrade to 12.04 when it was released. Because they knew it was not solid, but they released it anyway.

    It's a big contribution in the sense that when people see it they don't run away scared.
    That must be the reason why so many people switched to Debian, Mint and K/Xubuntu when Unity became the default for Ubuntu.
    Isn't it funny how the numbers and even Canonical contradict your statements?

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    I don't think that the first time you started Gnome 3 it looked just like Gnome 2 by default. Most people don't spend time customizing. They just get pissed that things that used to work no longer work anymore and go back to windows.
    LOL. I already told you that i had to make some changes, from gnome2 to gnome - so yeah, "you don't think..." *period*. This just reeks of you being a crybaby, and rather than fixing something that is probably trivial to fix (no different than the odd issue that crops up in Win/Mac), but instead you 'get pissed', have tantrum and re-install Windows... Sorry, dude but over the last ten years - i have probably introduced many more noobs to linux than you - not all people give up as easily as you do. most people are willing to learn what they need to know.

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    The mission of Ubuntu is to achieve the largest market share possible. So of course popularity is the driving factor in my thought process. Canonical may be incompetent in talking to the community and may have lost some focus for a while here and there but Ubuntu is still a solid OS and the first choice for people that come from Windows. Canonical isn't perfect nobody is arguing that it is. You just demonize it and make some relatively small issues dealbreakers.
    Again, popularity does not equal quality - nor is popularity the only and/or most important equation. Canonical is incompetent at making money via Ubuntu, it's not just a case of just how they interact with the community. I also disagree that Ubuntu is a solid OS. as someone else pointed out to you - 12.04 LTS was a disaster - and it still has problems; One example; there are still many users experiencing blank windows in unity/compiz, even after almost 2years (after the bug was reported) + a supposed fix (which seems like a partial fix for some, since it still occurs).

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    And yes the businessman in me only values top40 music. Don't start with the bullshit that you only listen to mozart and bach as a way of seeming superior.
    You probably know fuck all about the music business, so you can keep your pretentious crap to yourself ... and who said anything about only listening to mozart?!! - where do you even come up with this nonsense? .. I don't think it's the 'business man' in you (i bet you've never even run a successful business! lol), i just wanted to see if you anything but a sheep. but no, you definitely are herded around and don't have any opinions or thoughts of your own...

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Again you choose to ignore the number of developers that are involved in those projects. I said that you can't tell which one will get finished faster without knowing how many people are working on it. I said programming exercise meaning they did it for kicks, there was no real need for it. Just like the Windows 8 metro shit. Unity may not be a huge contribution in terms of code but in terms of popularizing desktop linux.

    There was a study and it showed that people basically install Ubuntu and leave the default interface on. You can find it yourself.
    I'm not ignoring anything. You're not understanding some basic shit here - Current Ubuntu is Gnome 3 DE (modified) compiz + Unity. Your right - Unity isn't that much code, nor does it require a whole lot of developers - it's scope is nowhere near that of Gnome's scope - which covers a complete DE, apps, libs, etc (most of which ubuntu is using). This isn't rocket science dude - Gnome did the majority of Development for Every single goddamn Ubuntu release, including every Unity release. And you are a moron to be going on about this numbers game.

    Unity did not popularize the Linux Desktop, dude. - there were millions of people already using Desktop linux. - if anything Unity decreased/discouraged people from using Ubuntu + Unity. again, why do you think Mint and Mageia are more popular...that happened after Unity became default. - your opinions contradict reality. As far as everyone leaving Unity as the default - you can post your study, I don't believe you for a second. I'd also like you to show how this information was collected - since it's critical to know how accurate it actually is - and knowing how Shuttleworth/Canonical have tried to spread FUD, misinformation, etc in the past - Sorry, but they don't get the benefit of the doubt, when they make such claims...so yeah - prove it + methodology used to gather these stats....

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Yes Unity is a big contribution. And it will integrate nicely with the mobile version of Ubuntu. It's a big contribution in the sense that when people see it they don't run away scared. What you don't know is that when you say linux to most people it means CLI. If linux becomes more popular not only Canonical will benefit from it.
    Nope. Not a big contribution - you're just reasserting the same bogus crap. Unity is not a freedesktop standard, supporting in on any other distro requires so fricking much patching to XYZ lib/app/etc - it really isn't a contribution to the larger community, at all....and lots of people ran away when they saw it / used it. You claiming the contrary doesn't mesh with reality. - Ubuntu's popularity dropped, googling Unity yields many bad reviews / criticisms and many people moved on to other DEs. (ie: there are more ubuntu users using Cinnamon than there are Unity users - and that's just one DE/fork of Gnome-Shell - what about the rest???)

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Yep that is the only metric that matters. See if you have a business you have clients. And the only think that matters is that those clients think that you are useful for them. That's it. The rest doesn't exist.
    Most of Ubuntu's *users* do not pay canonical anything at all for Ubuntu, and also do not use any of Canonical's paid services... Simply put; they are not clients, nor do they view Canonical/Ubuntu to be someone they are doing business with. Why do you think in 8-9yrs Canonical still fails to make any money - popularity does not equal profit, quality, etc... A good business model, hardwork, integrity and a property executed plan does tend to pay off. (Ubuntu/Canonical = shitty business model, no integrity and a poorly executed plan) ...and You didn't even understand the bit about Mark bolstering ubuntu vs. RHEL - yet, you are making the same mistake. (some 'business man you are...lol) RHEL users ARE clients of Redhat (who pay redhat), the majority of Ubuntu users ARE NOT clients, they are users. - they is no money to be made of them, aside from installing spyware by default and trying to rip non-profit organizations for small amounts of money... And no, you're a moron to think that is the only metric that matters; useless user opinions (like yours) don't fix or improve anything...

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Except Ubuntu isn't affected by their stumbles. It's not a good analogy. They are not lowering the quality of Ubuntu because some wayland devs got pissed at them.
    you're an idiot - 1. they lost popularity after making Unity default. 2. 12.04 *LTS* is buggier as hell! 3. by a number of tactics Canonical has pulled in the last couple of years - they have lost a TON of respect from various developers and projects, from which they rely on. That's problematic dude - it means these people will have no problem ignoring Canonical developers when they are hitting XYZ mailing list to submit patches for something that is Ubuntu-centric (as has already happened, with MESA developers, aswell, Kwin developer publicly stated he likely won't be supporting Mir).

    you're arguments are nothing but ubuntu fanboy apologetics and fantasy...

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Haha how are mageia and Mint more popular? And don't come up with distrowatch bullshit. Read that on their website? They say that they are not reliable since they only base themselves on hits from users. Most Ubuntu users don't give a shit about distrowatch. Ubuntu is the most popular desktop distro stop with the FUD. Do you really want me to believe that in 3 months Mageia became more popular than Ubuntu just because there were more hits on distrowatch? Pure bullshit.
    Mint has been more popular than Ubuntu for a long time, distrowatch was just an example. and no - i've never been to linux mint's website - I don't use ubuntu fscktard, nor do i distro-hop - there is no point... it's also funny how you seem to think "most ubuntu users don't give a shit about distro watch" like that is some powerful clever argument. In reality, it is RETARDED. Tons of reviews all over the web have favored Mint over Ubuntu and you can find other stats that reflect that as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Any version from Canonical had it's problems just like any version from fedora had it's problems (and lets not start with them now especially after anaconda shit). They are not perfect. No 12.04 was not a disaster. Read some fucking reviews. It works for most people. But now you will say that they were paid and there is a conspiracy.
    I've read reviews and unlike you actually participated in Compiz development, which is why i was so easily able to point that out, wiht no effort. And no - i was not going to say anyone was paid - you're so fucking dumb, PU$$.

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Don't be an idiot. Having a large userbase means it's easier to push it on hardware vendors. Which means money for each laptop sold. That is what they are trying.
    they've been 'trying' this for years, and have largely failed at it. Which is why they feel the need to install spyware, etc by default to scam income. There was nothing idiotic about that statement - it's the truth..

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Oh the illusion of superiority. You probably only listen to obscure music to feel different right? Listening to top40 means you're a sheep. Riiiight. No idiot, top40 means that is what it sells right now. If you want to make money in the music business you'd better learn to make songs just like in top40. You want to be popular? Get in the top40.
    No illusion of superiority, at all. But yeah, superior to you for sure... For every Justin beiber their are hundreds, if not thousands of kids trying to do the same thing - who won't make shit, simply because they are just copying him. You have to have more than that, kid. And it's funny, I can think of countless careers that were made by NOT emulating top40 - and in fact, it is the people whom have the talent and do original things that tend to change what is even defined as top40. Second of all, I worked in the music industry when i was younger, and my cousin is at the top of his game - tour manager; Neil Young, Bare Naked Ladies, Coldplay and Fiest (in that order / timelime) and i've had a lot of exposure from other friends/artists currently, in that industry... You don't know what you are talking about AT ALL. top40 trends/eras can die quick and fast when someone good comes along who isn't just copying the top40 artists. (this happens practically, every 10 years..dummy)

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Again you attack me. No, in fact I put up with a lot of shit from linux desktop (not only Ubuntu mind you) but most people don't. Hell just last week some guy had Ubuntu installed and saw me using KDE on Ubuntu and wanted to install it himself. 5 minutes later he gave up because he couldn't find KDE in the software center. He should have searched for kubuntu. But he didn't know that. Yeah for real, most people don't waste time searching on the internet for the solution. Sad but true. I told him that he is an idiot but it didn't help.
    cry me a river - boo hoo... You're freind is an idiot (unsurprisingly, since he is freind's with you..lol)

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Again I don't care about the 'community', I only care about what the users think. True a lot of people ran away like me for example. But for more people than those than ran away Unity was perfect. Not everybody is what is called a power user. For them running firefox in Unity is all that they need. Googling Ubuntu gets you more positive review than negative stop with that bullshit. I tried searching for negative reviews and most are either positive or neutral. Very few are negative towards Ubuntu. As I said initially I hated Unity and wanted to find that most people thought like me but the true was that no, most people were perfectly fine with Unity, especially the latter versions.
    For only running Firefox - almost any DE is just fine. :\ There are tons of criticisms of Unity all over the web and on Youtube as well. You obviously didn't look very hard. (unsurprisingly, since you're friend's with that guy who can't even use a search engine..lol). Again, you keep claiming a majority here - when in reality, you are talking about YOURSELF.

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    I didn't find anything buggy and especially not buggy as hell with Ubuntu 12.04 and especially not with 12.04.2. Right now we're at 13.04. A year has passed. And 13.04 isn't buggy either. I am not saying that on your configuration everything works perfect because of course there are issues on different hardware combinations. But buggy as hell it isn't.
    You're only one individual, here are a slew on the nvidia window blanking bug alone (which was a REGRESSION in compiz); https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+s...iz/+bug/729979 that's just one (annoying) bug, dude. - why don't you dig through _just_ compiz bugs, then head off to unity, etc ~ and see just how many people get screwed over by key components of Ubuntu's stack (that they manage / work on).... but you could go on youtube right now - watch ubuntu reviews and you will witness buggyness in most videos, or the content creator comments about it... and i routinely have to help friend's out with Ubuntu bugginess, instability, update issues, etc. - In fact, I would say on average probably more than my freinds that were using Vista (when it was out).

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    And yours just an Ubuntu hater. See I can play that game also.
    It's not a game - i stated a FACT... You are playing a game!

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    Mint has been more popular than Ubuntu for a long time, distrowatch was just an example. and no - i've never been to linux mint's website - I don't use ubuntu fscktard, nor do i distro-hop - there is no point... it's also funny how you seem to think "most ubuntu users don't give a shit about distro watch" like that is some powerful clever argument. In reality, it is RETARDED. Tons of reviews all over the web have favored Mint over Ubuntu and you can find other stats that reflect that as well.
    You'd be deluded if you think Mint is more widely used than Ubuntu. Small example: Go to Google+ and check the size of the Ubuntu community vs the size of the Linux mint community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jayrulez View Post
    You'd be deluded if you think Mint is more widely used than Ubuntu. Small example: Go to Google+ and check the size of the Ubuntu community vs the size of the Linux mint community.
    Fallacious, nice try though... We both know under the hood there are both ubuntu; therefore you google+ is rather pointless. We are talking about Unity vs. Mint - the Ubuntu Community isn't 100% Unity users (or even close to that number).

    Let's try a different, more comparable metric; Interest in Ubuntu vs. Mint via Google searches;

    Ubuntu: http://www.google.com/trends/explore...=ubuntu&cmpt=q
    Mint: http://www.google.com/trends/explore...nuxmint&cmpt=q

    notice the trend; ubuntu going steadily down since 2007 (with spikes) and Mint goes continues to rise (with some dips) and is now a more popular search on google than Ubuntu is...

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    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Mint is based on Ubuntu. You're not really helping yourself here. In fact Mint is basically Ubuntu with a different default DE. And I don't think that you really mean tons, sure there are some who would favor Mint, but not tons, and I don't think even most of them are. Maybe when Unity was at the beginning and not very polished people started favoring Mint but since then Unity got a lot better. In fact checkout the wikipedia on Unity and you will se that as time goes on reviewers opinion on Unity improves and right now it's considered a viable alternative to other DEs.
    No dude, that's the point - Unity is not the 'majority' preference - you wouldn't have an Ubuntu derivative being more popular than the default, nor would you have so many spins (that aren't Unity based) if your reasoning of Unity being the best DE was actually correct. I don't have to go to Wikipedia to see how good Unity is - i can run it just fine thanks. it blows chunks.

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    And I can do the same thing with KWin for example. Shit. Tons of bugs there also.
    You can say anything you like, but i can't remember the last time KWin had a bug where windows would turn blank (and it's developers were well-aware of the problem for 2 years). Also, Kwin dev says Ubuntu's graphic stack isn't upto snuff - generally, kwin seems to run poorer in Ubuntu than some other popular distros...

    What i love though, is you totally avoiding the vista comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Yes and bieber is brimming with talent. I'm sure that what made him popular is the fact that he was original. Shit. That wasn't it. It was the fact that some A&R watched his youtube and liked him. In fact there are tons of bands who are really original and that will get no exposure. Want to know why? Because there are certain patterns that are acceptable to the masses. Every 10 years or so somebody comes along and either cranks the distortion up or down on the guitar and calls it original music. If you actually knew anything about music you would have known that basically everything in top 40 has basically the same 4 chords structure.
    Justin is very talented, i guess you didn't pick up on the fact i said "hundreds or thousands of kids" as opposed to "hundreds *of* thousands.. or even millions of kids. ~ i was only talking about talented kids. And i am well-aware of modern pop music and it's use of the same chord progressions - and i know this since i play several instruments rather well... and it isn't just someone coming along with distortion. Messages change, genre's change, ideas change... You're an idiot - it's like you just thought of Kurt Kobain or something...

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    In fact they even did studies on music to see if they can find patterns from the 60s 'till today, irrespective of genre, when it comes to music that gets to the top of the charts. And they actually found just that. You can basically manufacture hits. Most of the bands that don't emulate the top40 don't do that at the beginning but then they calibrate on what the masses want and change their fans basically, leaving the old niche ones for the masses with a dumbed down sound and composition. The best example of this is Metallica. After dumbind down their sound they sold beyond their wildest dreams. Sure you could say that they weren't top40 material at the beginning but they adapted. The same goes for most bands. And of course there are those that are already adapted from the beginning. Those who actually try to do something really different are seen as niches.
    They didn't *just* find that out and that is only part of the problem of modern music sounding generic and the same - the loudness wars played heavily into it, digital-editing, quantization and autotune played huge fucking roles in that. Even with similar chord progressions - top40 music sounds significantly more similar than say in the 40s-80s. (it's essentially been washed of any fluctuations in timing and mistakes that add to the performance... And besides that, if you know anything about Music theory, you really can't get around the math. ie: every artist, band, etc is going to be limited by what notes we can hear, produce and use in combination with each other. You can change the key of some progression, drop the last note down and octave, etc - so yeah, it is a little bit of history repeating, as they say. (which is fairly obvious to most musicians)... Also, Metallica is not a good example; they were pretty damn popular before the black album ~ and there albums had gotten softer right from the beginning; well, after kill 'em all - which half of the riffs were Dave Mustane's in the first place.... And the same doesn't go for most bands - you are generalizing way too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Knowing that they can manufacture hits you might wonder why don't they do just that. Well they actually do. They put 20 songwriters in one home for 2 weeks and manufacture 5 singles for Rihanna. Of course it's not only the songs but also the marketing but even without the marketing if you were to take people from the street and put them to listen to those songs the pleasure centers in their brain would light up. Even those who would swear that they fucking hate Rihanna. They scientifically found out what the ear likes and what not. All they need to do is just manufacture a song in the current trend. For example the loudness war right now it's at the end so they will manufacture songs with more dynamic. No one is saying there are no trends but underlying them you will find the same structure ad infinitum.
    This is old news, the monkeys were too. (manufactured songs). I hate to point of something really obvious - but songs aren't just sounds, you see song writers / singers tend to write these things called lyrics, you've left a key component out of the equation - content. People don't hate rihanna necessarily because of the four chords in her song - they probably more likely hate the image, and her content: ie: what she has to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    So after trying for a few years they should just give up right? Never try anything else? You would make a genius businessman.
    I didn't say that - but as far as i am concerned trying = failing with success. You don't try to do something - you do it, or you don't. But thanks for proving yet again, that you are very capable at knocking down your own fallacious claims. (since i wasn't even implying what you are saying above..lol. your so dumb).

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    There are tons of criticism for Gnome 3 also. And for a lot of stuff in the linux world. And yet Ubuntu is the most popular. Of course you will find tons of criticism of it because there are a lot of people that talk about it since there are tons of users. But if you're not an asshole you will also find that most reviews are pretty positive about Ubuntu 13.04 and their Unity interface.
    I'm aware of all of this... But interestingly, your now admitting the criticism's that only one or two comments ago - you claimed didn't really exist, in regards to Unity.... You're such a disingenuous a little snake (and not even smart enough to catch yourself tripping over your own false-claims.... No one said there wasn't criticisms of Gnome either - You've claimed Unity is the Best DE, used by almost every Ubuntu user and that people don't really customize their desktops, etc - All of which was bullshit....

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Perfect way to attract more people to linux. I get the feeling your 15 years old with you attitude.
    Wrong. I am just not treating you in a respectful way. You rant, talk shit, etc - what do you really expect in return? Respect isn't just given to assholes like yourself...that everyone just agrees with you - when in almost every thread where you comment, they dont... Wow, gotta love those double standards :\

    It's not my job or even an interest of mine to evangelize linux, and even if it was; hanging out in the Phoronix Forum wouldn't even be a sensible way to do that. that should be pretty obvious, but apparently not to you ~ instead, you come to a linux website to evangelize and attract new linux users (that's fucking retarded dude!...lol)
    Last edited by ninez; 05-16-2013 at 01:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    I've never claimed that Unity is the best IDE for everybody. Of course there are people who don't use it. The statistics show that. Hell until 4 days ago I wasn't using Unity (and I'm not completely sold even now). But what I was claiming was that most people really don't care about customizing the DE or changing the default one which in Ubuntu is Unity. Right now the most used DE seems to be Unity in Ubuntu that is all that I am saying. Power users completely lost it when Unity was launched as default DE in Ubuntu and started Mint or migrated to other distros etc etc. So I can't claim that everybody uses or loves Unity just that for now people who buy a computer with Ubuntu installed and are not knowledgeable in linux are just fine with Unity and don't want something else.
    Your wrong about the customization thing. If that were true, their would be no Unity tweak tool, Ubuntu tweak nor any other tool to allow changing the desktop around. if no one was doing it. - not to mention that you could go look in Ubutnu's forums for screenshot threads, and/or on flickr or even vids on youtube. Next, lol. IDE?? Unity isn't an IDE. (and that's not a spelling mistake on your part, "I" is nowhere near "DE" on a keyboard. an IDE is an integrated development environment, dude...lol

    You also again, are making unsubstantiated claims about users that you do not know, at all. How do you know all noobs are fine with Unity??? you don't. They may just as easily end up hating it and try something else - You don't know that and AGAIN! do not speak for anyone but yourself. (when will you get this simple concept through your pea-sized brain? seriously!)

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Haha so you're not actually interested in facts only in your little world. Mint is not more popular than Ubuntu that is pure shit. You now say that you don't want to search google to see how many are giving positive reviews to Unity. You are a pure asshole. You search for how many negative reviews there are but never bother to search the positive. You are only validating your own world. You consider Unity to be shit so you search only for the negative reviews to reinforce your behavior? What the fuck is wrong with you? You can run it just fine? So you have Ubuntu installed? How much of a hypocrite can you be? All you said is that Ubuntu is shit and Canonical is shit and you actually use Ubuntu? You simply choose to see what you want to see and never consider anything else.
    You again, are just making up shit. I've read reviews on both counts. You claimed the vast majority are happy using it - you were wrong. end of story. We've been over this, again and again. The rest of your argument is invalid. Lots of people consider Unity to be shit, you claimed otherwise - now you are just backtracking. This isn't a question of reinforcing my own view. Actually, it more like after reading dayz of your posts, deciding to jump in and hassle you a bit for your moronic fanboyism

    Next, I do occasionally use Ubuntu - mostly fixing other people's problems, on their machines (as i've already told you)... ie: not on any of my H/W. I use Archlinux and MacOSX... I do have a VM i setup to test / debug an app that worked with eglibc but not glibc - so I tested it in ubuntu (eglibc)...but aside from that - no, Ubuntu isn't worth installing on H/W. Archlinux serves all of my purposes very well (to the point i won't be buying another Mac, after i eventually sell / give away my current Mac - especially since i rarely use it as is.).


    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    Genres change, the other 2 not so much.
    i disagree, you can claim they don't, as some notion of universal unchanging truths/ideas (ie: war, love, etc) - but the fact is societies change, social norms/values change, the world changes in a variety of ways, sometimes quite drastic, to the point previous generations would not understand it, as easily.... and singers/songwriters tend to reflect what's going on around them, so content does change. Contrary to your belief it doesn't.
    Last edited by ninez; 05-16-2013 at 02:06 AM.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    I told him that he is an idiot but it didn't help.
    Well, now you know how I feel when I talk to you...

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