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Thread: Kubuntu, KDE Has Little Hope For Ubuntu's Mir

  1. #111
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    Talking Just laughing at the posts in this thread

    There is a lot of drama in this thread about KDE, Kwin, etc that make me laugh. It's incredible how people don't pay attention to the details.

    1. Like someone said, KDE will not even consider a Mir port until support land on QT, the toolkit used by KDE, right?
    2. Digia hasn't expressed an interest (at least for the moment) on supporting Mir, right?

    But hey, the new released Ubuntu SDK is based on QT, plus the fact that they mention they will make future versions of its Apps and Desktop using QML (QT for non techie folks), that means at some point Canonical will provide the QT port for Mir. And if Mir ever get a mainstream exposure, no matter if caused by others deciding on using it, or big mayor sales of units with Ubuntu (mobile, tv, etc), then very likely Digia will look at those patches and make them official.
    http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2013/03/c...-wayland-not-x
    http://www.olli-ries.com/mir-unity-q...ty-apis-unity/
    http://developer.ubuntu.com/get-started/gomobile/

    That means for KDE users is that a Mir implementation will depend only on the success or failure of Mir itself, because QT 5.x support will be there, at least on an unofficial form. But GTK pals need to worry.

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    but again - just go ahead and forcefully remove every package that has come from gnome - if you can't remove them, delete all associated files for each package - thenb reboot / logout/login or whatever - then let us know how well your desktop is behaving
    And again, just go ahead and forcefully remove every Qt and KDE package - if you can't remove them, delete all associated files from each package - then reboot / logout /login or whatever - hten let us know how well your desktop is behaving

    Saying that 1/2 part represents the whole is stupid at best, you know? Say, If one day, we can substitute our body part, and you substitute 1/2 of your body with someone else, 1/4 with the others, and from your part, the original but important one is just 1/4, can I say that it is not you? This is just an analogy. What I mean is, like Awesomeness said, it's not Gnome cause quite a lot of Unity part is not Gnome technology. Please, be smart, be logic.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    At some point, when it seems like everyone else is an idiot and you're the only one who knows the truth... a sensible person would ask him/herself, "am I in the wrong? Can I really be smarter than everyone else, and everyone else just doesn't get it, or could it be that they all can see something that I don't?"

    A sensible, rational person doubts him/herself from time to time. A sensible person is not afraid to consider the possibility that he/she might be wrong, and is willing to entertain the thought. Self-doubt is a very important part of critical thought, because if you only apply critical thought to others but not yourself, then you have truly become blind.

    You can keep on blaming others, making up excuses, thinking that everyone else is just "jealous"... but if you're a sensible person, some day you will see that the emperor has no clothes.
    You made my day! Err, from the reply,
    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    In fact no it doesn't seem that everyone is an idiot from where I stand. In fact I find quite a few people on these forums that basically say what I say. And by the way the same thing can be applied to you. Ever questioned yourself and stopped following the hater crowd? Everybody likes to hate Canonical these days. It's such an easy target. They're popular and want more market share. They basically painted a target on their backs.
    I thinks it is of no use for us to drag out this topic. This one won't understand no matter what. In his head, there's just, "I love ubuntu. It has became a part of my life. You all there who oppose ubuntu is ubuntu haters. Go fuck yourself".

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by lukem33p View Post
    Canonical really broke it, for now. I don't know how Desktop Linux should be repaired, but Linux projects need to market themselves, making note their difference in policy. Canonical needs to break away officially (by their remarks or the community's), because otherwise they'll always be on the verge of breaking away and even more damaging.
    Hey, you! ubuntu haters!

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkcoder View Post
    There is a lot of drama in this thread about KDE, Kwin, etc that make me laugh. It's incredible how people don't pay attention to the details.

    1. Like someone said, KDE will not even consider a Mir port until support land on QT, the toolkit used by KDE, right?
    2. Digia hasn't expressed an interest (at least for the moment) on supporting Mir, right?

    But hey, the new released Ubuntu SDK is based on QT, plus the fact that they mention they will make future versions of its Apps and Desktop using QML (QT for non techie folks), that means at some point Canonical will provide the QT port for Mir.
    Someone who doesn't understand the basics shouldn't act this arrogant.
    1.) The toolkit's name is Qt, not QT. QT is QuickTime.
    2.) Qt 5s platform support is realized via plugins.
    3.) Canonical is already developing a Qt platform plugin for Mir: https://launchpad.net/qmir QMir has not been upstreamed to Qt Project and upstreaming QMir to Qt Project would mean that Canonical lost all their CLA rights to QMir.
    4.) The topic here is KWin. QMir will not make KWin magically work with Mir as windows managers have to talk to the graphics system directly.
    5.) Normal KDE applications will probably run on Mir via QMir but neither KWin nor the remaining components of Plasma Workspaces will likely support Mir any time soon.

    PS: QMir is GPLv3-only: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mir-te...:/mir/main.cpp
    This means that all applications must be under a GPLv3-compatible license or obtain a commercial license from Canonical (a commercial Qt license one may already own from Digia does not cover QMir). This is a problem for GPLv2-only applications as well as proprietary applications like Skype.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    Someone who doesn't understand the basics shouldn't act this arrogant.
    Arrogant why???? half the most in the threads are misinformations, worst than mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    1.) The toolkit's name is Qt, not QT. QT is QuickTime.
    Really... Really... so you said that qt is not Qt too. omg.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    2.) Qt 5’s platform support is realized via plugins.
    I know that, thats why I said Cannonical eventually will make a backend, plugin, glue or whatever you wanna name it to let Qt work with Mir.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    3.) Canonical is already developing a Qt platform plugin for Mir: https://launchpad.net/qmir – QMir has not been upstreamed to Qt Project and upstreaming QMir to Qt Project would mean that Canonical lost all their CLA rights to QMir.
    Making the plug-in was obvious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    4.) The topic here is KWin. QMir will not make KWin magically work with Mir as windows managers have to talk to the graphics system directly.
    Don't like to sound arrogant, but do you really read my post. I never said magically. I said that Kwin support depended on 2 things: Qt support and Mir actual future. And as we discussed, Qt support will be there, even if not official for the time being. So that means only one issue remains... Actual market share that Mir will eventually have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    5.) Normal KDE applications will probably run on Mir via QMir but neither KWin nor the remaining components of Plasma Workspaces will likely support Mir any time soon.
    Also never said soon... hey Mir still is MIA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    PS: QMir is GPLv3-only: https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mir-te...:/mir/main.cpp
    This means that all applications must be under a GPLv3-compatible license or obtain a commercial license from Canonical (a commercial Qt license one may already own from Digia does not cover QMir). This is a problem for GPLv2-only applications as well as proprietary applications like Skype.
    Software relicensing happens all the time. Do you remember when Qt lacked the LGPL license, or the guarantee that the open source version will remain free even if parent company went down? So that doesn't bother me. More than the license issue, is the Canonical way of doing things. They may eventually shared their stuff for the rest of the world or not.

    Also even if the numbers (in mobile) don't sell, Canonical is looking at other markets like tv boxes, etc. And even if they don't distribute 1/10 of the current Android Market, all their units and software will be QML based, and will be more than the amount of Qt apps available on Android devices.

    Also is not only about KDE/Kwin, but all distributions based on Ubuntu have around 2-3 years to plan what to do next, since Ubuntu is changing it's direction very fast. Is no more the updated good looking Debian clone that everyone loved. Like RedHat, they saw a market opportunity and they are working towards it. The Ubuntu community sooner or later will have to decide if they keep fighting against the system, become independent, or join someone else.
    Last edited by darkcoder; 05-18-2013 at 04:54 PM.

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkcoder View Post
    Don't like to sound arrogant, but do you really read my post. I never said magically. I said that Kwin support depended on 2 things: Qt support and Mir actual future. And as we discussed, Qt support will be there, even if not official for the time being. So that means only one issue remains... Actual market share that Mir will eventually have.
    Please read the original article this is about. There are technical reasons it may never be possible for kwin to support Mir properly.

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrch2k8 View Post
    For market dominance the most pressing issue is ABI stability
    And you still like Mir even if we all know that Canonical told the ABI could break anytime, without a warning?

    Quote Originally Posted by darkcoder View Post
    Qt support and Mir actual future. And as we discussed, Qt support will be there, even if not official for the time being. So that means only one issue remains... Actual market share that Mir will eventually have.
    And what about KWin not accepting distro specific patches? No sane distribution will use Mir when they know that it only cares about Unity. See: Let's say KWin supports Mir. Now Canonical breaks Mirs ABI in flavour of Unity and releases that without any warning: KWin is broken.
    If you where the maintainer of KWin, would you really want to live in such a maintain hell where you basically have to be awake 24/7 just to see when Canonical bites your ass and then you have to code faster than light to fix everything up again or would you choose a stable protocol that wouldn't break cause it was well designed from a group of experts and even if it would break for some reason you would get a warning months before and even early alpha/beta versions of that protocol so you have enough time to adapt (Wayland) ?

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awesomeness View Post
    So? The old license was already a free one very similar to the lgpl. The relicensing to Apache was because FreeBSD thought about adopting launchd and they preferred a license without copyleft.
    Well, Apple public license is not GPL compatible, while Apache 2.0 is at least GPL V3 compatible. I would guess that Apple projects were not relicensed without reason and that it was not only Canonical that complained for the license/refrained from reusing code.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by TAXI View Post
    And you still like Mir even if we all know that Canonical told the ABI could break anytime, without a warning?
    No one is breaking ABI during feature freeze. You know that and I know that. Time of frames of "breaking ABI" are set so your argument is moot.

    Quote Originally Posted by TAXI View Post
    And what about KWin not accepting distro specific patches?
    I'm sorry but Ubuntu is not "distro-specific". Ubuntu IS your desktop Linux, like it or not.
    http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

    Quote Originally Posted by TAXI View Post
    No sane distribution will use Mir when they know that it only cares about Unity. See: Let's say KWin supports Mir. Now Canonical breaks Mirs ABI in flavour of Unity and releases that without any warning: KWin is broken.
    Again, Canonical is *not* breaking ABI during feature freeze.
    Quote Originally Posted by TAXI View Post
    If you where the maintainer of KWin, would you really want to live in such a maintain hell where you basically have to be awake 24/7 just to see when Canonical bites your ass and then you have to code faster than light to fix everything up again or would you choose a stable protocol that wouldn't break cause it was well designed from a group of experts and even if it would break for some reason you would get a warning months before and even early alpha/beta versions of that protocol so you have enough time to adapt (Wayland) ?
    You don't have to be awake 24/7 to support Mir. You only need to have your eyes open during Ubuntu development cycle.

    Quote Originally Posted by BO$$ View Post
    No I don't lovoe Ubuntu. In fact I have no affinity to any OS or distro. I use whatever works best for the task at hand. Sometimes it's windows sometimes is linux. But right now for someone who makes the jump from Windows to linux I think the sensible thing to do would be to install Ubuntu (or the latest openSUSE I have heard good things about it). Ubuntu is more focused on easy install and UX. You can argue that lately other distros have appeared focused on the same thing but for many years Ubuntu was pretty much the only one. And looking at the install base it still use.

    There is way too much fragmentation in the FOSS world and I support Ubuntu not because I am a slave to Canonical but because right now, since they already are the most popular, they have chances to become even more popular and dominate the market. If fedora were the most used distro and looked like it wanted to conquer the world I would support them instead of Ubuntu. It's not the fact that it's Ubuntu but the fact that they stated that they wanted to become more important in the market and they already are the most used distro so at least until now they have something to show for their words. But you, instead of supporting them, would do actually anything to make sure they won't get a larger marketshare because of various filmsy reasons. Is it really more important for you for them to use Wayland than to use Mir? Is it really that what matters? You intentionally don't want to look at the whole picture and choose to put more importance on things that don't really matter in the grand scheme. What matters is that linux becomes more dominant in the market.
    Couldn't say better myself. Canonical are the only ones in FOSS world who have the balls to make an OPERATING SYSTEM, not an incoherent set of packages.

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