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Thread: In-Fighting Continues Over Mir On Non-Unity Ubuntu

  1. #71
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    pfff I should stop reading posts about ubuntu stuff. So maybe thats the problem here.

    But I am shocked how many ubuntu zealots are there.

    So wayland will be supported/switched from every distribution more or less. Then there is Mir a ubuntu exclusive thing, but even ubuntu will support wayland.

    But now is the time that this developers of kde and so on take manpower away from getting wayland support done, to support Mir? And if they dont they are amateurish? really?

    Wikipedia:
    An amateur (French amateur "lover of", from Old French and ultimately from Latin amatorem nom. amator, "lover") is generally considered a person attached to a particular pursuit, study, or science in a non-professional or unpaid manner.
    focus on the "unpaid" thing... canonical pay this kubuntu folks or the kde folks a few million dollars each year and they are by definition because of that payment not anymore amateurish. And for that many you will get your hints and maybe even some development time to support your exclusive bullshit.

    And btw, if you have to missinterpret the word amateur (it basicly or primary means that you dont get paid for your work) then in your definition is it professional or amateurish to release adware software (ubuntu).



    btw, as example if you today with X want to have a real full gnome-shell desktop on linux you have to have upgrade much stuff and change some stuff... you basicly cant have unity and gnome-shell on one pc with the full experience as example you have ot install newer nautilus and newer totem versions installed that kind of breaks at least a bit unity.

    So where is the big problem if gnome-edition uses wayland instead of mir? First canonical wayland or writes a own think like wayland so forks effort and then they wine about that not everything now focus together on one (their) solution?

    Are they retarded?

    I made advertisement for ubuntu in my private circle, some people switched to it because of that, Know everybody who asks me I will warn about ubuntu and where I give support I switch to fedora/arch...



    haha I found it really funny if really each program have to modified to work with wayland/mir (the x emulation is only a bridge thing, and I think the goal should not be to use that forever).

    So Ubuntu did have advantage that debian did for them 90% of their work... and yes you can say thats ok so... dont reinvent the wheel a 1000 times. But now debian does integrade wayland but not mir... so their future kde versions and gnome-programm versions will all be compilied with wayland only support.

    So if canonical is not able to bring the patches upstream to have mir support... they not only have to fork each of this projects they have to make their own packages... ok they dod repackage the debian packages anyway... but they use most of the time the same base package and add some patches on it... now they have to replace the base source so it will be difficult if not impossible to use the debian-packages as base.


    So they are fuckin damned to work with upstream now... its not about beeing social or not... its about investing money at this point or invest 5-10x so much money by forking and make own packages for it.

    They are totaly megalomanic

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1l_ View Post
    BTT:
    The Kwin developer didnt loose any time to make clear he hates MIR and and doesnt want to work with Ubuntu/Canonical. Now Ubuntu/Canonical wants to solve the problem which arises for kubuntu and other flavours and is offering to talk about possible solutions and asking to be guided to KDE/Gnome specific code to come to a solution. But all they get as a reply is: "You made a false statement in march so fuck off". If you sum up what the KDE guys said about Ubuntu/Canonical in that meantime and even talked about sending adhortartory letters its not Ubuntu/Canonical who is playing a dirty game here.
    That is so funny...
    Let me summarize:
    1) someone ask in the mailing list about the future of the ubuntu derivates (even if it is pretty obvious, to me)
    2) canonical's devs say that they can help in the process to add Mir compatibility for Kwin/KDE.
    3) Someone try to explain that even if someone write the patches for Mir compatibility the problem is not solved because the obvious side effects, that are the followings:
    - when you have adopted those patches upstream, the upstream devs must take care of them, no more the canonical's devs.
    - because Mir is a canonical solution, how the upstream can check if future development break the Mir compatibility or add regression without properly testing? So the kwin devs must install ubuntu only for check that? LOL
    - what happens when ubuntu devs break API/ABI for the needs of unity? The KDE upstream must work for fix their code to be compliant again, because that code are upstream now, and for the only reason to support canonical egoistic solution? Pls don't joke.
    4) Marting (in his blog post) put a big problem in the table:
    Mir doesn’t have a real protocol. The “inner core” is described as “protocol-agnostic”. This renders a problem to us if we would want to use it. Our architecture is different (our design of having desktop shell and window manager separated) and we need a protocol between the desktop shell and the compositor. If Mir doesn’t provide that we would need to use our own protocol. And that already exists, it is called “Wayland”. So even if we would support Mir, we would need the Wayland protocol?!? That doesn’t make any sense to me. If we need to run Wayland on top of Mir just to get the features we need, why should we run Mir at all?
    No one has replied to that. The only problem of the mailing list's attendee was about the bug report caming from unity patches. LOL
    5) the kubuntu devs have no technical skill for implement all that changes downstream and the upstream have all the reason to refuse the workload and the responsability to maintain the Mir specific code.

    Short story: Still it is Ubuntu/Canonical who is playing a dirty game here because now they try to move the responsibility of this mess on others, and someone (like you) is already fallen in the trap.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    ...OpenRC is being targeted as a potential replacement for SysV init in some BSDs, most recently Arch BSD.
    I couldn't quite make this out. It reads as if the BSDs are currently using SysV-style init instead of BSD-style init.


    Quote Originally Posted by c117152 View Post
    Despite it being such a huge improvement over sysvinit and still remaining true to the *nix design, I just can't see it [OpenRC] getting any traction outside of some old school Gentoo die-hards, Free\NetBSD users, and possibly Slackware.
    I believe LSD GNU/Linux has moved or is moving to OpenRC, not that changes the overall picture you described one bit. I think a key player will be the Debian Project, with whatever init choice they make down the road.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by c117152 View Post
    Don't get me wrong here. I'm probably one of those people who will keep using it at least for a while in the server. But, for the desktop? When there's so much focus on systemd? When I'll have to strip each and every package and write my own init scripts? Looking up man pages for flags, downloading and reading the systemd source scripts (since they're binary), rebooting. Again and again and again... It's not the easy sysvinit to OpenRC transition it was so I just can't be bothered. There's just so much work into distributing even a single package so in the distribution game the guys with the deepest pockets (Red Hat, Intel, Samsung...) will win out. Since it's not like people are losing anything exceptionally meaningful. They'll still be running the same stuff, it will just get initiated less conveniently.
    I don't know about "source files", but everything you need to configure is in .desktop style files. I just migrated my gentoo to systemd, and it was a lot easier than just writing one startup script for openRC. It also monitors services for crashes and restarts them, which openrc can't do. One thing I find very useful is that a service can have a specific mount as dependency. All this counfigurable with less than 10 line long config files.

    back to Mir : The point has been made many times in this thread already, but once again : Nothing is stopping canonical guys from writing the Mir backend. I will however not get merged upstream because that would put the maintenance burden on kwin maintainers.

    Canonical got caught in its own web of FUD and lies, and they fully deserve it.

    I made advertisement for ubuntu in my private circle, some people switched to it because of that, Know everybody who asks me I will warn about ubuntu and where I give support I switch to fedora/arch...
    Same here, although I'm including Chakra in the mix too now.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    Although IIRC the 1-Click Install also pulls in media players, and those do depend on GTK or Qt.
    Via the openSUSE 12.3 GNOME One Click Install listed at http://opensuse-community.org/Restricted_formats/12.3, the Packman and libdvdcss repositories are added, and the following packages are installed: llibdvdcss2, flash-player, ffmpeg, lame, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-ffmpeg, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-good, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-bad, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-ugly, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-ugly-orig-addon, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-bad-orig-addon, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-good-extra, and dvdauthor07.

    The GNOME/Xfce/LXDE instructions at http://forums.opensuse.org/content/1...uide-12-2.html feature a slightly different package set (the instructions haven't been updated yet for the 12.3 release either): libdvdcss2, vlc, libxine2-codecs, libxine2-pulse, lame, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-ffmpeg, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-bad, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-ugly, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-ugly-orig-addon, totem-browser-plugin, w32codec-all, MPlayer, smplayer, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-good, libxine2, libdvdplay0, libdvdread4, libdvdnav4, xine-ui, libmad0, libavutil51, sox, libxvidcore4, xvidcore, libavcodec52, libavdevice52, libvlc5, totem, totem-plugins, nautilus-totem, lsb, pullin-flash-player, flash-player, vlc-aout-pulse, gstreamer-0_10-fluendo-mp3, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-fluendo_mpegdemux, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-fluendo_mpegmux, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-base, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-good-extra, libquicktime0, gstreamer-0_10-plugins-bad-orig-addon. Mike Frett, if you install this second package set, just exclude whatever media players (VLC, xine, Totem, MPlayer/SMPlayer) you don't want.

  6. #76
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    Oh come on, leave the init system discussion for whenever Ericg finishes his comparison article

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by c117152 View Post
    Ubuntu: Upstart & Mir
    Gentoo: OpenRC & Wayland
    Slackware\BSD: sysvinit & X.org
    Everyone else: systemd & Wayland
    Upstart is not only used on Ubuntu. Debian still uses it and Red Hat, Centos, etc. too. OpenSUSE has it in their repositories. Chrome OS does use Upstart too.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filiprino View Post
    Upstart is not only used on Ubuntu. Debian still uses it and Red Hat, Centos, etc. too. OpenSUSE has it in their repositories. Chrome OS does use Upstart too.
    I think many people consider that Upstart was a good solution, and that systemd, started later, is better. Hence many distributions using/having used Upstart, but most of them expected to switch sooner or later (e.g. Red Hat, as Fedora is already on systemd).

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by k1l_ View Post
    The Kwin developer didnt loose any time to make clear he hates MIR and and doesnt want to work with Ubuntu/Canonical. Now Ubuntu/Canonical wants to solve the problem which arises for kubuntu and other flavours and is offering to talk about possible solutions and asking to be guided to KDE/Gnome specific code to come to a solution. But all they get as a reply is: "You made a false statement in march so fuck off".
    Really? Would you mind to show us that response to Canonical's offer? Oh, and if you are at it, please show us when and where Canonical talked to the KWin developers about this.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filiprino View Post
    Upstart is not only used on Ubuntu. Debian still uses it and Red Hat, Centos, etc. too. OpenSUSE has it in their repositories. Chrome OS does use Upstart too.
    Debian does not use it by default and never has, they use sysvinit. RHEL6 and it's derivatives do use Upstart, but that will change in the coming months with the release of RHEL7. Upstart will soon be Ubuntu and Chrome OS only.

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