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Mir Development Stats Dominated By Canonical

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  • #41
    Oh my... You mean... Jesus.... The majority of development on Mir is Canonical funded!!!! OMG! :P

    In all seriousness, it will be interesting to see how much better than Wayland (technically) this ends up being, or if it'll just be another Upstart.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
      I did read the docs. The fact Wayland doesn't do any drawing doesn't mean it doesn't act as a server, and that's one of the things that wasn't clear on your previous post (and lead me to think you were under severe misunderstanding).
      From the main page:

      Obviously, I recalled it incorrectly, where it says it can be, I recalled it was, when it's just a possible way to implement it.
      You was (wrote are, but meant was) still wrong with X11 (that's a protocol, and the server normally used is X.org), and from what I read on Mir's spec, about Mir, since it doesn't seem to handle the drawing but the compositing, just as Wayland do.
      I'm aware of all the advantages of Wayland, I read the docs (not to the end, yet) because I want to port my pet pr
      oject to Wayland.
      Anyway, I obviously misunderstood you, I actually thought your post was trying to say Mir was a far better option. I specially misunderstood what you meant with GPU language specification. It sounded like they were redesigning OpenGL or something like that, not just making use of DRI as I'm aware they do.
      On another subject, civility is not at all overrated, man, and your HUGE FONTS and BOLDS are pretty impolite.
      well to extend a bit in this topic wayland is not a server at all and it can't be not just because it doesn't draw, as a reference X.Org doesn't necessarily draw either[unless you use motif directly <-- insanity].

      so what make an protocol like Mir and X11 server type? well, with either of this two Mir and/or X.org are global processes that handle the interaction between GPU[positioning/input/referencing/rendering/surfaces/subsurfaces/etc] and the clients, this means and X.org or Mir application can't access the framebuffer of the GPU directly, they have to request the operation to this global middleman in between and this apply to the compositors too, they have to request and process the framebuffer to this middleman talking an API this middleman can understand, so the middleman later can render the completed frame.

      what make Mir different from X.org? well basically Mir trimmed all the fat of the X11 protocol and try to be a less intrusive middleman allowing you more freedom in the render process, in theory Mir can be atomic and properly threaded too[TODO for now] and uses EGL instead the GLX mammut but still is a global process middleman that you have to request operations even so you have to do lot less roundtrips than you would with X11.[you can confirm this checking their own examples and looking at your process table]

      so, why wayland is not a server then? keeping your words wayland is more close to an OpenGL for Framebuffer management than to X.org or Mir. let see it this way, you can do everything wayland does using pure EGL/OpenGL or even GPU ASM, is not a big deal at all and the performance advantage is nasty but if everyone do this their own way basically would be a hell of a mess that will force you to use 1 computer per application, so all christian did was think of an standard library that can send this object directly from the application to the GPU in an standarized fashion so we can all use it. So yes that it is wayland is nothing more that a library of premade objects that you can send to a GPU to do window surface operations directly.

      so why wayland need a compositor? it doesn't need one at all and is not part of the spec either

      so what is a wayland compositor? put simply a client or application that other applications that use the wayland protocol register objects with, so it can keep a global idea of how the framebuffer is looking in a given period of time and do operations with that information[change a surface position for example or add eye candy], in resume a compositor is a good added value but is not necessary

      in which god's case i would not use a compositor? full screen games or any type of full screen application, yeap just create a surface that match the entire display size then render something into it and swap it, 100% GPU dedicated to your APP like magic

      so how wayland/client relate? you app using the wayland protocol create an usable surface, then your app draw something in that surface using any API you like[OpenGL, OpenVG, GPU ASM, Pixman, etc] then your app inform the compositor it have an valid surface at X,Y,Z[in case is not fullscreen] and the compositor simply re render a surface as big as the screen[that include your app and other apps surfaces] and post-process it to give you a final surface composited from all other subsurface

      so in resume when your app is linked to libwayland your app not wayland send packages of operation directly to the GPU, use wayland isn't any different than use a let say a jabber protocol library or libtorrent protocol library, in perfect english everything is on you because wayland do absolutely nothing at all beyond provide you with premade operations to start a valid surface in the GPU[ofc if you use tollkits like Qt or Gtk they do the heavy lifting]

      i hope is more clear[and obviously is very simplified], about been polite is hard sometime when you explain the same thing in 200 different post and ppl still come and say "Lulz wayland don't minimize" or any other barbaric assumption without properly investigate before hand

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      • #43
        Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
        Wayland is a PROTOCOL Mir is actually a SERVER like X11 but without the fat, if you can't tell the difference means you are not an engineer or you wasted a lot of time and money in that university.
        I have no idea why you're quoting me, of all things. My point was that Mir did not accelerate the development process of Wayland.

        Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
        I know full and well what unit testing is, but I quickly misread it as test code (as in trying different approaches/solutions, most of which will be discarded).

        The reason I did this is because Wayland and Weston obviously also has a lot of unit test code, so the reason Mir has more LOC than Wayland is very unlikely to stem from that. Again it could just be a ton of comments making Mir larger as Michael stated in the post that he included them (why? iirc CLOC neatly lists code, comments and blank lines separately).
        No, Ohloh count comments separately from lines of code and whitespace. Mir has 160k lines of actual code, Wayland has 12k, Weston has 53k.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
          Also, if a claim I read about in this or another thread is true (I don't know, since the poster never pointed me to any official source), most of the fast development of Mir was due to a HUGE reutilization of Wayland's code.
          Reuse of libhybris (compatibility with android drivers). for xMir xWayland, couldn't find reliable source, and too complicated to compare code myself.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
            I have no idea why you're quoting me, of all things. My point was that Mir did not accelerate the development process of Wayland.
            probably misunderstand, i apologize

            and yeap you are right Mir have nothing with wayland development speed, just maybe more publicity

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            • #46
              Originally posted by erendorn View Post
              Reuse of libhybris (compatibility with android drivers). for xMir xWayland, couldn't find reliable source, and too complicated to compare code myself.
              well the author of libhybris got very vocal some weeks ago because canonical in their original presentation make it look like it was theirs but in reality he made it for wayland and canonical fork it to adapt it to Mir[like they did to XWayland/Xmir], here is a repost in G+ https://plus.google.com/113386402913...ts/9LF6atjc455 from carsten munk, as you see the date predate by far Mir. if i find the discussion ill post it later

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              • #47
                here is the blog post http://mer-project.blogspot.fi/2013/...u-drivers.html

                and the quote from the dev himself

                "Earlier this year however, I discovered that a well-known company had taken the code - disappeared underground with it for several months, improved upon it, utilized the capability in their advertisements and demos and in the end posted the code utilizing their own source control system, detached from any state of that of the upstream project's. Even to the extent some posters around the web thought libhybris was done by that company itself."

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                  No. A lot of times it's faster to just go do your thing than try to convince others of your POV.
                  well this is relative and in this case could backfire, the good thing is only canonical will use Mir for the midterm and only unity will have support for it, so if things goes south they can switch to wayland quite easy.

                  the issues here is that mir is not another mp3 player or another mail client but a very complex part of the entire stack that could help your vision in the short term but since everyone else will support only wayland for quite sometime it can become a hell to maintain in the long term since ubuntu will have to maintain their QPA plugin and Mesa patches including any other linux app Qt or Gtk that will support wayland only.

                  another thing we can expect is canonical to cut from ubuntu every open app[except for server apps] and create their own mir apps prolly using a very high level set of tools like mono and so detach themselves from the FOSS world and became their own project which would save them a huge amount of porting and maintaining and get rid of any license issue that could happen with their store

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                    No. A lot of times it's faster to just go do your thing than try to convince others of your POV.
                    Canonical was convinced of Wayland's merit for a while, Boss. Then they backpedaled.

                    Let's hope their wannabe-Apple attitude is going to pay off.

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                    • #50
                      No surprise

                      Canonical doesn't even want any third-party developers, they just want it developed in-house by themselves.

                      Not very community spirit!

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