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Thread: Canonical Posts 15 Mesa Patches To Support Mir

  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by LinuxGamer View Post
    Wayland is Fixing most of are problems in the Desktop space thats what we needed for so long to go Full Mainline
    Correct client-side decorations implementation development time is 10-100 times bigger rather than just binding binding toolkit to yet another window and OpenGL context creation mechanism. I've spent about 1 hour to port cocos2d-x game engine to SDL library (which just creates and handles window and OpenGL context, and input). Someone should spent months to implement correct client-side decorations.

    Enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by LinuxGamer View Post
    on top of that all the Development for Wayland is mosty the same on Desktop's or Phone's
    All phones have integrated GPU, so operating memory always can be also videocard memory. This fact used on Android to make built-in browser, Chrome and Firefox work smoother; there are ANDROID_NATIVE_BUFFER extension in EGL that makes it possible. Also on phones client-side buffer allocation causes bigger memory consumption than server-side; Wayland developers said that wayland doesn't prohibit server-side buffer allocation, however, wayland doesn't prohibit and doesn't implement nothing, it is not display server. Weston is display server, and I see no mechanism to allocate buffer on server side with Weston.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    Yes, you got me right this time. I know, it's an awful bit (I said, that's asked for far too much). If people in charge also see it this way, we're stuck. They can very well blame Canonical for that and they'd be right, still the issued would remain unsolved. Not good for anyone, I think. But I'd like to make it clear again, that I certainly won't blame the people who ignore or fight Canonical for a good reason - I just don't like that, though.
    No good for Canonical you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    I'd like to point you at RMS justification of the "selling exception". This isn't exactly the same here, but it comes close (enough).
    I disagree that they are the same. but that is another discussion....and you certainly didn't address the example i gave.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    Nope, not yet, but that there's some development ongoing. It'd be a shame if in the future only Canonical would benefit from that, because of things like Mir (which could be solved - even afterwards).
    How is Canonical going to be the only one to benefit exactly, when Ubuntu is over 80% debian unmodified and relies on the larger eco-system for pretty much everything they use? Mir is an ubuntu-only solution, that no one is going to use ~ and also very likely not even support... The only way canonical can benefit beyond $$$ is if they developed their own OS - which they don't really... they just band-aid / modify debian unstable.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    Yes, that was BS, I'm sorry. I was actually only thinking of machines directly sold to end users - I should have made this clear - my bad I know, that Ubuntu is not a very big part of Dells business, but it still is: http://blog.canonical.com/2011/10/27...ores-in-china/

    They don't do that with other distros, do they?
    As already pointed out: Dell supports 4 distributions officially, and unofficially try to support anyone... They can ship with any of those distros on their "linux supported/certified hardware"... and it's the enterprise one's like RHEL where they make their money, Ubuntu is not all that profitable ~ and in China, it is well-known that people will buy a linux-PC just to avoid paying extra money and tend to install pirated MS OS instead...


    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    1) Hm, may I ask you, what you think "marketing" actually is? It actually means, steering the market towards your needs - that does not exclude dirty tricks. It's more than just commercials.
    Thanks champ, I am aware of what marketing is thanks; "The action or business of promoting and selling products or services." I'm sorry, but NOT all happenings in a business' board room are considered "marketing". I'm not sure where you get that idea, which is essentially what you are saying...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    2) The shape of the Linux Desktop - I'll comment on this later on this post.
    Don't bother - I've been using linux on my desktop for 10yrs - i am aware of where it is at...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    I actually agree here, but the problem is, that people will follow Canonical, if their marketing works - no matter if you or me like that. (I feel that I should recall my attitude towards Canonical here: I don't love them, but right now they seem to be the only way out of MS/Apples grip in the long term).
    In the short term, you mean... Canonical's marketing won't work, unless they have a good product <which they don't>. I'm sorry, but the average-user is still going to run into common crappy problems that marketing won't fix and Canonical probably can't fix themselves. In the long term Linux will win either way, it already is (just not on the desktop yet, since it's really not ready for that).

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    In my experience, most people are helpless either way if they encounter a problem. They can't fix things neither on Windows nor on Ubuntu. They always need other people to help them - some of them are lucky to have tech-savy friends, others just ask the next pc-store for help.
    both MS and Apple do a much better job of hand-holding, when problems arise and the nature of linux problems tend to be more difficult, because of how many more rough-edges there are... Also providing support tends to take longer on a messed up ubuntu machine than a windows or Apple machine... You also mention PC stores; i don't know about where you live, but very few PC stores around here offer any linux support, so that's a non-starter.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    I migrated a bunch of people from Windows to Ubuntu and received significantly less calls for help since then (started with 10.04). These people are friends, family members or teachers at my university (not from the cs department - Ubuntu is already widespread there).

    I recommend Ubuntu as long their ability to interoperate isn't limited (e.g. some of them desperately need MS Office - sometimes they're fine running Windows with that in a VM, but that's usually not what I recommend).

    That leads me to the conclusion, that Linux Desktop (at least Ubuntu) is in a good shape for some of the average users, maybe even for the majority (?). Surely not for everyone - by far not, but for quite a bunch I think.
    ...and i can say the opposite. ie: anecdotal evidence doesn't add up to anything. The majority is going to care about interoperability (whether they know it or not), as i said before MS dominates business/offices, how can you then say it's good enough for the majority, when they will either have to dual-boot or use a VM??? that makes NO sense at all. Not being able to support XYZ format, XYZ application (used daily @ work) or XYZ website (functionality) not supporting Linux is a bigger problem than you make it out to be...

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    I noticed, that Canonical wants control over their stuff, but this isn't (necessarily) the same as isolating themselves. For instance, an employee of Canonical offered to work on KDE for Mir ( http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTM5MTE ), but was rejected by KDE devs.
    I never said they were the same thing. (they aren't). and your example is silly - they offered to do that because the KDE guys *won't* do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    Btw. "more concerned with marketing than quality" - Although I don't think, it's that bad, I wouldn't object to this, but to this: "Canonical = MS". I know, you're referring to quality vs. marketing, but still I'd be careful to write it this way.
    Actually, you quoted as i was editing. it doesn't say that.

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    I guess it's a good portion of both. I agree on what you're saying, but I'd add, that Ubuntu made Linux (kind of) end user-ready. Without that, I guess, Valve would still not be on Linux land.
    Ubuntu made *Debian* user friendly. Please just STOP with this Ubuntu = Linux nonsense ... Ubuntu contributes very little to "Gnu/linux" and very little to actual "linux"...the kernel. I could just as easily say that without Nvidia Valve wouldn't have come to liunux or without XYZ Xorg developer Valve would have never come to linux....

    ...and this is what pisses me off, all of you Ubuntu kids are quite happy to give Canonical credit, where it isn't due..

    Quote Originally Posted by alexThunder View Post
    And of course, you're right, that most average users don't care for games. However, gamers (as audience) usually sit between: they're not kernel hackers, sure, but usually they're still more capable of using a computer, than the average. Linux is currently entering that market and we're seeing success. Of course, there's still a loooong way to go, but hey - it's something
    Gamers are important, i agree - but i wouldn't say the success has been huge there, Valve's stats don't seem to indicate much growth if any... I think gaming is an important step, but you need the business people, you need to be able to supports other industries, as well - if you are going to get to any critical mass.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    No good for Canonical you mean.
    If it's only Canonical, I wouldn't mind too much. But if they get too influential AND isolated, ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    I disagree that they are the same. but that is another discussion....and you certainly didn't address the example i gave.
    I guess I missed your point. What's it then?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    How is Canonical going to be the only one to benefit exactly, when Ubuntu is over 80% debian unmodified and relies on the larger eco-system for pretty much everything they use? Mir is an ubuntu-only solution, that no one is going to use ~ and also very likely not even support... The only way canonical can benefit beyond $$$ is if they developed their own OS - which they don't really... they just band-aid / modify debian unstable.
    Didn't we worry about fragmentation? What if Ubuntu gets big and people are targeting only Mir?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    As already pointed out: Dell supports 4 distributions officially, and unofficially try to support anyone... They can ship with any of those distros on their "linux supported/certified hardware"... and it's the enterprise one's like RHEL where they make their money, Ubuntu is not all that profitable ~ and in China, it is well-known that people will buy a linux-PC just to avoid paying extra money and tend to install pirated MS OS instead...
    I'm not sure how much influence these shops generate, but Dell is still only doing this with Ubuntu (having shops with pre-installed Ubuntu).

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    Thanks champ, I am aware of what marketing is thanks; "The action or business of promoting and selling products or services." I'm sorry, but NOT all happenings in a business' board room are considered "marketing". I'm not sure where you get that idea, which is essentially what you are saying...
    I got that from a professor of Volkswirtschaftslehre (german, sorry I don't know the english equivalent - it's something about broader economics).

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    In the short term, you mean... Canonical's marketing won't work, unless they have a good product <which they don't>. I'm sorry, but the average-user is still going to run into common crappy problems that marketing won't fix and Canonical probably can't fix themselves. In the long term Linux will win either way, it already is (just not on the desktop yet, since it's really not ready for that).
    There will certainly every be issues - as they are everywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    both MS and Apple do a much better job of hand-holding, when problems arise and the nature of linux problems tend to be more difficult, because of how many more rough-edges there are... Also providing support tends to take longer on a messed up ubuntu machine than a windows or Apple machine... You also mention PC stores; i don't know about where you live, but very few PC stores around here offer any linux support, so that's a non-starter.
    I wasn't talking of PC stores supporting Linux, but offering support in general. If average people get problems with their machines, they're (mostly) helpless - not matter if on Windows, Mac OS or some Linux distro. They already need external help - it's not a Linux-specific problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    ...and i can say the opposite. ie: anecdotal evidence doesn't add up to anything. The majority is going to care about interoperability (whether they know it or not), as i said before MS dominates business/offices, how can you then say it's good enough for the majority, when they will either have to dual-boot or use a VM??? that makes NO sense at all. Not being able to support XYZ format, XYZ application (used daily @ work) or XYZ website (functionality) not supporting Linux is a bigger problem than you make it out to be...
    I wasn't sure about Linux being ready for the majority, but certainly for a whole bunch of (easy) people. And when they need a Windows-VM, I do not recommend Linux and I said this in my post before. If they need such a VM, Linux is not ready for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    I never said they were the same thing. (they aren't). and your example is silly - they offered to do that because the KDE guys *won't* do it.
    Why is this silly? I know, that they offered to do this, because the KDE devs won't. My point here is, that if Canonical were after isolating themselves, they wouldn't want other DEs on Ubuntu, would they? And surely they wouldn't offer to port such DEs themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    Ubuntu made *Debian* user friendly. Please just STOP with this Ubuntu = Linux nonsense ... Ubuntu contributes very little to "Gnu/linux" and very little to actual "linux"...the kernel. I could just as easily say that without Nvidia Valve wouldn't have come to liunux or without XYZ Xorg developer Valve would have never come to linux....

    ...and this is what pisses me off, all of you Ubuntu kids are quite happy to give Canonical credit, where it isn't due..
    I'm aware, that Ubuntu's part in that is small - without the aid of other giants they'd be nowhere. Still, they made Linux (easily) accessible to easy users, didn't they? Afaik they didn't do that much more ... well, Upstart maybe, but that's not a game changer. And Unity (I know, I know, I'm sorry for that one :P)

    May I ask, what you actually mean with "Ubuntu = Linux"? What do you actually think what Ubuntu users think about the relation between Linux and Ubuntu? Btw., I'm also using Arch and to me Ubuntu is (still) a distro made easy - not that much more.

    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    Gamers are important, i agree - but i wouldn't say the success has been huge there, Valve's stats don't seem to indicate much growth if any... I think gaming is an important step, but you need the business people, you need to be able to supports other industries, as well - if you are going to get to any critical mass.
    No, the success isn't huge right now and I didn't say that, but still that development (this is for you, phoen1x) looks good right now. I also know, that you need the other people as well - still, gaining some ground among gamers is better than nothing. It's ok if they don't sky-rocket at every place at the same time

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by ninez View Post
    HP (like DELL) also supports multiple flavors of linux and Unix and i would bet that in both cases; Ubuntu is not a big driver in sales for either. ASUS i don't know about, but am too lazy to look up. But they probably also support Red Hat / Oracle / Suse because there is more money in that than Ubuntu.
    Asus support not only Ubuntu, but also Fedora (including its enterprise variant RHEL) and OpenSuse.
    http://www.asus.com/fr/websites/glob...s/OS/Linux.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by finalzone View Post
    Asus support not only Ubuntu, but also Fedora (including its enterprise variant RHEL) and OpenSuse.
    http://www.asus.com/fr/websites/glob...s/OS/Linux.pdf
    I was referring to computers sold, not single components, e.g.

    http://www.alternate.de/ASUS/ASUS+X5...duct/1076594/?

    http://www.alternate.de/Hewlett-Pack...duct/1087341/?

    Sorry for putting up a German website again, but under the title of the Notebook, you can see "Linux Ubuntu".
    It's also listed under "Betriebssystem" (Operating system) if you click on "mehr infos".

    (They're also offering Notebooks with Linpus (Acer, Packard Bell)) and Shuttles with SuSE)
    Last edited by alexThunder; 07-20-2013 at 07:27 PM.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britoid View Post
    Whatever happened to Linux being about choice? If a company wants to create their own display server, what's wrong with that? We should start putting restrictions on what display server you can use in Linux? That surely sounds pretty restrictive.

    Mir and Wayland are both the future.

    Should we start hating on Google now for not using Xorg or Wayland for Android and instead making their own?
    If they do it on their own, then why do they want to add stuff to mesa?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LinuxGamer View Post
    yeah see here



    thats Mir on non Intel Opensource Drivers
    That was Mir 0.0.3, they've updated to 0.0.4 now so the picture isn't relevant in the slightest, so it comes across that you're going to post it around like that BSDguy with the tasteful Tux and BSD Daemon smut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LinuxGamer View Post
    his real name is BO$$ the Linux Desktop has maybe 1 year to go befor its more Mainline ready then Windows aka full Wayland Support
    Do you have proof that these two are the same person?
    If you do, put up. If you don't, shut up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    Do you have proof that these two are the same person?
    If you do, put up. If you don't, shut up.
    Since everybody hates Ubuntu except for BO$$, everyone not hating it must be the same person. Deducing from this, you must be BO$$ as well - just as I am. It makes sense, since no one else would question that - except for BO$$

    You shouldn't investigate any further. People like him are so deeply sunken in their own personal conspiracy, that arguing with common sense won't get you any further. At the very end, he'll instead ask you to prove that you're not BO$$, which is pretty much impossible for you to do - thus, you must be lying, if you're claiming you're not BO$$ (same is true for disproof, but that doesn't matter :P).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britoid View Post
    Whatever happened to Linux being about choice? If a company wants to create their own display server, what's wrong with that? We should start putting restrictions on what display server you can use in Linux? That surely sounds pretty restrictive.

    Mir and Wayland are both the future.

    Should we start hating on Google now for not using Xorg or Wayland for Android and instead making their own?
    Linux IS about choice!
    And that's exactly why i hope these patches get rejected!

    Canonical had something that was capable of doing what they needed (Wayland), they even said they would use it, and then they just made their own, that can only be used by them.
    Canonical's goal is getting more clear evey day, and that is to force everyone to use their own software.

    By controling MIR, they know in advance what changes they'll make and the plans, so they are at an advantage against other distros.


    I sincerely hope Canonical burns for this.

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