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Thread: KDE Vivaldi Tablet Finally Shipping For QA Testing

  1. #51
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    From plasma-active.org: "Plasma Active is easy to install, but you can also test drive it from a USB stick. The official Plasma Active image is based on Mer and is provided by basysKom. You can find the software and installation instructions on the KDE Wiki."

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_j_newbury View Post
    Nonsense. libhybris was developed for Mer (MeeGo fork), which is the base system used by Jolla for the SailfishOS, but is also the base system for embedded Plasma Active deployments and Nemo.
    The nonsense is all the arguments on people trying to bring down Canonical.

    The fact is they are all taking from each others, especially after the three teams (Sailfish/PlasmaActive/Canonical) all decided to collaborate.

    For Sailfish, they should copy Canonical and brings out a desktop distribution and push Jolla to be convergent like Ubuntu-Touch, else they risk being passed by or shadowed.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by e8hffff View Post
    So your position is Wayland was the proponents of libhybris from the very start. It doesn't make sense when libhybris originally could only do video and maybe touch.
    I wasn't sure Monk had his library named libhybris that is why I had to edit my post and remove the sentence asking for proof they stole his project. After I look they happen to stay with the name, and that's history. They embellished the original basic structure and now libhybris is an active important project for all to use.[/quote]

    Firstly: Wayland was running on Android drivers when Mir was still a twinkle in Shuttleworth's eye. There were reports of Wayland being ran on top of Android drivers even before Libhybris.
    Secondly: yes Canonical is now contributing to Libhybris, but they didn't write it, they are not responsible for it, they wouldn't be able to use it to support running Mir on Android drivers without the groundwork done by the original developers.
    Thirdly: yes, it is fine to contribute to a project, or fork a project if the license so allows. What isn't fine is take a project, disappear with it, add a few lines of code to it and then present it as if it's your doing, effectively taking all the credit for it.

    If I can talk of my own opinion of Canonical, they're not trying to separate themselves from Linux as that would leave them out of accessing vast coming and existing resources. They have simply adopted projects that advance Linux in a way that makes it less confronting, faster and wide, example PulseAudio, Mir, proprietary video drivers. This is contrasted with many people crying old school, example painfully setting their system to do ALSA-OSS and bitching how bad PulseAudio is, all whilst we hear this is going to be "The Year of Linux" to take over Microsoft Windows.
    Now you're talking about pulseaudio, but PA has nothing to do with this. Canonical didn't "adopt Mir" and it's not a project that advances Linux. It's a project that has nothing to do with Linux, and everything to do with Canonical's own agenda - it doesn't serve the needs of anyone besides Canonical, and isn't useful to anyone else, and is potentially harmful to the entire desktop Linux ecosystem.

    Wayland has come to libhybris due to Mir.
    No it hasn't. That's just plain bullshit, if anything it's the other way around. You see, Wayland is backend-agnostic: Wayland can run on software rendering, it can run on top of X, it can run with EGL drivers and it can run with Android drivers.

    It may interface the library and drivers in a less efficient manner (i'd need to research this more) so this is why I give more credence to Mir over Wayland as it's designed from the ground up to work with the library. Why should I drop excitement for Mir, because Wayland testers are linking to libhybris and that Wayland was on the ice for so long and picked up momentum due to Mir!
    More bullshit. Wayland has never been "on the ice", it hasn't "picked up momentum" due to Mir, it has been under constant development for quite some time now. Go look at the Wayland mailing list archives, look at the amount of work that has gone into making it. What you don't get is that there's a whole shitton of groundwork that has been necessary to enable new and modern display systems such as Wayland and Mir to even be developed, and this work has largely been done by Wayland developers. You need to realize that without all this work on Wayland, Mir wouldn't even be possible right now.

    Wayland has been constantly in active development, and right now it has a stable API, it's usable, and is on its way to being used in various different platforms - earlier than Mir, even. Mir development didn't give Wayland any kind of assistance, because it has been going the other way - Mir has been getting a free ride from Wayland, then jumping off near the finish line and going its own way...

    Also, this is not about Wayland testers linking to libhybris. Libhybris is enabling Sailfish OS to use Android drivers, and the first Sailfish phone is entering the market and the end of this year, earlier than any Ubuntu phone. KDE has already shown that it can run Plasma Active on top of Mer, which is what Sailfish is also based on. Think about that for a while.

    I'm sick of people from the 'Cave' screaming Canonical stole his project, and the like. It's like me saying Facebook or jQuery stole my XMLHttpRequest routine. Code ends up looking the same when you are addressing the same task. It's as simple as that and if there are claims of piracy then it's usually because people see their code comments stolen verbatim.
    Well no, there are no claims of "piracy". There's no such thing as "piracy" in open source software. Open source allows copying, modifications, even forking the codebase. Technically, Canonical hasn't done anything illegal. But that's all irrelevant here. I've already explained the Libhybris issue to you and I don't see why you keep rehashing it and ignoring the actual point of the argument. The point is, there is no advantage to Mir, there is no good reason for anyone other than Canonical to use Mir, because it doesn't bring anything new to the table, only things that Wayland already does better.

    Lets sit back and watch which projects shine. Lets see if Ubuntu goes 'wide' and compare that to how well PlasmaActive goes with Wayland. If I put a bet on I'm pretty sure I'd be coming home with money.
    Well there's no big corporation investing money to make PlasmaActive-based devices in bulk. No one's really selling PlasmaActive, and the KDE tablets are aimed at hobbyists at this point, so the comparison is invalid in the first place. It'd be more accurate to compare Ubuntu phone with things like Jolla's Sailfish (first phone to be released at the end of 2013, earlier than Ubuntu phone) and Tizen (no info yet when devices will be released).

    And that's only the mobile side. On the desktop... well, everyone other than Canonical is moving on to Wayland, and with good reason. Mir doesn't satisfy the needs of anyone. Wayland promises a stable protocol, a modern display system, an open community-based development model. Mir doesn't give any of that. You can't reimplement Mir, you can't create your own Mir compositor/server to suit your needs - because Canonical doesn't commit to any kind of stable API or protocol, they won't promise not to break compatibility, and they have clearly stated that their only concern with Mir is Unity - they design it for the needs of Unity only.

    So what this means is, in order for KDE or someone else to use Mir, they'd have two options: use Canonical's Mir as is, try to match their existing codebase to whatever Unity-specific API Canonical comes up with, then play catch-up when Canonical inevitably breaks the APIs - constantly having to fix breakage because upstream keeps breaking things because they only think about their own usecase is not fun, or sustainable in the long run. Just go ask the Mint developers, that's pretty much where they're now with Cinnamon and GNOME's breaking APIs.

    The other option would be to reimplement Mir, but then there'd be the same problem - they'd be incompatible with Canonical's Mir unless they constantly play catch-up, and if they just say "to hell with it, we'll just ignore compatibility", they'd no longer be doing Mir but a whole new display system. And at that point, they might as well just use Wayland instead, and get all the benefits of shared resources and effort from everyone else using Wayland.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by e8hffff View Post
    For Sailfish, they should copy Canonical and brings out a desktop distribution and push Jolla to be convergent like Ubuntu-Touch, else they risk being passed by or shadowed.
    Yes, obviously everyone needs "convergence", no one can succeed without "convergence", after all, Android has been having their own "convergent" desktop distro to match their mobile OS since day one... oh wait.

    I'm not a proponent of the Global-Warming Agenda as I think it's pure politics
    Climate change is a known fact that is agreed upon by an overwhelming majority of the scientific community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    You realize that the Edge is a phone correct? And that top end ARM devices have GPUs as fast as those in the PS3.
    top end ARM devices GPUs have an theorethical raw output close to the one present in the PS3 <-- Huge difference

    and even so ARM SoC have very narrow bandwith so any tiny mistake can starve the pipeline way before even reach half of that theoretical raw power of the GPU

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Yes, obviously everyone needs "convergence", no one can succeed without "convergence", after all, Android has been having their own "convergent" desktop distro to match their mobile OS since day one... oh wait.
    You didn't fathom my perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Climate change is a known fact that is agreed upon by an overwhelming majority of the scientific community.
    So my hunch was correct that you had no integrity, the reason my you have been arguing the trivial.

    GM is no science fact., it's a political agenda created from Club of Rome.

    “The common enemy of humanity is man. In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself." - Club of Rome 1993, 'The First Global Revolution'

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Now you're talking about pulseaudio, but PA has nothing to do with this. Canonical didn't "adopt Mir" and it's not a project that advances Linux. It's a project that has nothing to do with Linux, and everything to do with Canonical's own agenda - it doesn't serve the needs of anyone besides Canonical, and isn't useful to anyone else, and is potentially harmful to the entire desktop Linux ecosystem.
    I was generalising on the direction of distributions and what's considered progressive and not. It's not news that PulseAudio has the same hatred from those in the 'cave' as Mir vs Wayland.

    The fact is Wayland was endless Youtube demos of people showing flowers and shapes spin or colour changes. It took Mir's announcement months ago to get Wayland kicked into action and now we see progress. Others criticised Mir for its choice to use Android drivers, now we see Wayland users scramble to use libhybris even though Sailfish team instigated the basic form of the library and its connection to Wayland.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    Well no, there are no claims of "piracy". There's no such thing as "piracy" in open source software. Open source allows copying, modifications, even forking the codebase. Technically, Canonical hasn't done anything illegal. But that's all irrelevant here. I've already explained the libhybris issue to you and I don't see why you keep rehashing it and ignoring the actual point of the argument. The point is, there is no advantage to Mir, there is no good reason for anyone other than Canonical to use Mir, because it doesn't bring anything new to the table, only things that Wayland already does better.
    Obviously but why then did Monk get upset when his own team forked MeeGo, they use QT, Alien Dalvik, Wayland, etc. Then we had countless Wayland fanboys screaming blue murder that Canonical was shafting the scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee. View Post
    The other option would be to reimplement Mir, but then there'd be the same problem - they'd be incompatible with Canonical's Mir unless they constantly play catch-up, and if they just say "to hell with it, we'll just ignore compatibility", they'd no longer be doing Mir but a whole new display system. And at that point, they might as well just use Wayland instead, and get all the benefits of shared resources and effort from everyone else using Wayland.
    Well now we can only hope the proprietary driver makers (Nvidia/AMD) pick the best display manager, else Wayland or Mir will be playing catchup. Personally I want Mir chosen as I'm yet to see any 'WOW' from Wayland. It's more like a XOrg rewrite. If the guy behind Wayland has his mission complete then it may be respectable, regarding speed and anti-screen tear.
    Last edited by e8hffff; 07-23-2013 at 10:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrch2k8 View Post
    top end ARM devices GPUs have an theorethical raw output close to the one present in the PS3 <-- Huge difference

    and even so ARM SoC have very narrow bandwith so any tiny mistake can starve the pipeline way before even reach half of that theoretical raw power of the GPU
    What was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of you not being able to look it up or extrapolate technical progress over the last 7 years.

    The GPU has since been renamed the Mali T-678, it's basically around as powerful as the PS3's GPU, but with modern features like OpenGL4 and OpenCL.

    http://www.knowyourmobile.com/produc...raphics-mobile
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/5077/a...r-than-mali400
    http://www.overclock.net/t/1164389/t...658-mobile-gpu
    http://www.droidforums.net/forum/and...18-months.html

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by e8hffff View Post
    You didn't fathom my perspective.
    Because you have none. "Convergence" is a buzzword, tell me what benefit do you expect to get from having the same interface in both a 5" phone and a 22" desktop, and why every mobile OS maker should seek to emulate that? It's a stupid idea, microsoft already tried it and look how far it got them, all of a 4% market share...

    So my hunch was correct that you had no integrity, the reason my you have been arguing the trivial.

    GM is no science fact., it's a political agenda created from Club of Rome.

    “The common enemy of humanity is man. In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself." - Club of Rome 1993, 'The First Global Revolution'
    Oh right, it's a conspiracy, and the NWO probably has their hands in it, and the Freemasons, and the number of the beast shows that Obama is the antichrist and the moon landing was fake. Gotcha.

    Probably all of the scientific evidence of climate change all around the world is faked, too? You know, it no longer surprises me that you lack critical thinking skills enough to believe whatever Shuttleworth tells you. After all, if you're used to getting your "facts" from "websites" written in comic sans, well, that explains it all, really. Have fun with http://timecube.com/

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    What was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of you not being able to look it up or extrapolate technical progress over the last 7 years.

    The GPU has since been renamed the Mali T-678, it's basically around as powerful as the PS3's GPU, but with modern features like OpenGL4 and OpenCL.

    http://www.knowyourmobile.com/produc...raphics-mobile
    http://www.anandtech.com/show/5077/a...r-than-mali400
    http://www.overclock.net/t/1164389/t...658-mobile-gpu
    http://www.droidforums.net/forum/and...18-months.html
    Not sure "number of polygons" per second is the end all be all metric to compare GPUs.. what about shaders for example?
    To me it seems that PS3 games are still visually more impressive than mobile games, but then, I don't play on mobile (or console).

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