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Thread: AMD Radeon, NVIDIA GeForce Linux Comparison For July 2013

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by djdoo View Post
    I said microsoft followers not users! I also use windows Can't do without them for now...
    Oh. Sorry. Not a good day for me today. :/

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    Both of you are wrong.

    What you should be asking is why Larabel doesn't get the same treatment that the hundreds of Windows review sites do. They sen to have absolutely no trouble at all getting pre-launch date top end hardware, even limited production custom designed parts are given to them free of charge, while Larabel doesn't even seem to be able to get bargain basement parts sent to him.

    Let me know when you've figured out why, you should already know my position on this.
    I imagine it's a combination of Phoronix not having the readership of the large Windows sites, and you overestimating the ease of smaller sites getting hardware. A quick search reveals Windows sites complaining about the same issue. http://www.wsgf.org/node/20729 "NVIDIA has not yet decided to support the WSGF with hardware for review and benchmarking. Considering that the WSGF is a hobby that just supports itself, I cannot justify spending the money needed to test NVIDIA cards"

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    Actually there are those that make hardware with Tux right there on the box. How about a nice piece of kit like the Intensity Pro HDMI capture card? http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity/ Theres no reason he can't beg for one, do a review on it and build a review setup for real frametime latency like PCPer has done and start testing for real.

    But that would take actual effort and work, both things he seems adverse to given that he only reviews with what can be completely automated. With the way he writes his articles it seems like everything is just copied and pasted from previous articles.
    There is nothing wrong with automated testing. What exactly do you think is wrong with using the software to report frame rate values? What would be the advantage of capturing frames? What would it show?

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    Actually there are those that make hardware with Tux right there on the box. How about a nice piece of kit like the Intensity Pro HDMI capture card? http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/intensity/ Theres no reason he can't beg for one, do a review on it and build a review setup for real frametime latency like PCPer has done and start testing for real.

    But that would take actual effort and work, both things he seems adverse to given that he only reviews with what can be completely automated. With the way he writes his articles it seems like everything is just copied and pasted from previous articles.
    The output latency is a different thing from input latency. All those hardware capture cards only measure the former, while the latter is far more important for interactive use. It's not a movie where only output latency would matter.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by curaga View Post
    The output latency is a different thing from input latency. All those hardware capture cards only measure the former, while the latter is far more important for interactive use. It's not a movie where only output latency would matter.
    Output latency matters for visual fluidity, tearing is not desired at all.

    Input lag is more an issue with the monitor type you are using, but it's not the be all end all that "elite" gamers claim it to be, since most of what they are nitpicking about is at timescales so small that you can't possibly react fast enough to the visual input. I.E. visual data hits eyeball>brain processes visual data and sends command to hand>hand completes action. Thats the way it works since most current games aren't 100% pre-defined and timing based like Super Mario, where if you want to beat the game perfectly you have to know the game so good you initiate the actions before you see them because you already know where they are and what needs to be done.

    Not to mention that they make the false assumption that LCD screens ever display at more then 60FPS/Hz. No matter the Hz rate the screen's don't display any faster, 240Hz is done by flickering the backlight to simulate the framerate of the old filming standards like 24 FPS film and 29.9 FPS broadcast TV. It's just a trick being played on your eyes.

    Yes, I'm fully aware that the human eye can actually detect framerates of over 100FPS, but no consumer gear is designed to use more then 60FPS/Hz.

    Put it this way, if input lag mattered so much nobody would be any good at console games and thats clearly not the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
    I imagine it's a combination of Phoronix not having the readership of the large Windows sites, and you overestimating the ease of smaller sites getting hardware. A quick search reveals Windows sites complaining about the same issue. http://www.wsgf.org/node/20729 "NVIDIA has not yet decided to support the WSGF with hardware for review and benchmarking. Considering that the WSGF is a hobby that just supports itself, I cannot justify spending the money needed to test NVIDIA cards"
    Thats because Larabel has chased off a large portion of his reader base over the years with his lame reporting and bad reviews. Theres a reason that if you post a link to Phoronix on most Linux sites it goes ignored or the poster is denigrated for posting it.

    It's like posting a link to Faux "News" or Prison Planet on any subject as a serious source.

    Quote Originally Posted by djdoo View Post
    Why don't you do all these yourself and show Michael and us how it should be done at a site run by you with benchmarks as you would prefer instead of always accusing others??

    I am tired of all those I know everything guys and doing nothing...
    I also hate Window$, their benchmark payed sites, and the guys that show them as something to follow!

    Rot Microsoft in your awful Windows within your followers' empty brains!!
    It's his site, but he is the only face of Linux benchmarking, it's his damn job to not make Linux users look like a bunch of morons. Larabel is the current status quo of Linux benchmarking and he's terrible at it.

    I'm too busy with my work in politics(I'm not a politician, but I have worked for a few, I have no desire to run for office.) to start my own site else I would. it's a 12-18+ hour a day job, I've pulled more then a few 36+ hour runs as well, but I love it. Interesting people, travel a bit, talk with celebrities and other people that most people only ever get to see on TV, learn how things actually get done.(This varies wildly depending on what level or levels of government you are working with and what who is in what seats, most defiantly not a job for those that can't think very fast or have excellent recall. Remember, the staff or activists do the work, the politician sells it to the other politicians or the public.)

    If you are wondering how I find time to post, simple, the work isn't constant and I can remote desktop into my home machine to post. Yes, I run Linux on my work laptop, with Windows7 rarely used in a VM for those times when Wine and ReactOS fail me.

    As before, if you think I'm a fan of anything Microsoft you are sorely mistaken, but the windows review sites are the only ones to go to to find any real information at all about anything hardware related because Larabel is so shit at his job. Not all the sites are paid for, though there are ones where it's stupidly obvious like Tom's Hardware.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    Output latency matters for visual fluidity, tearing is not desired at all.

    Input lag is more an issue with the monitor type you are using, but it's not the be all end all that "elite" gamers claim it to be, since most of what they are nitpicking about is at timescales so small that you can't possibly react fast enough to the visual input. I.E. visual data hits eyeball>brain processes visual data and sends command to hand>hand completes action. Thats the way it works since most current games aren't 100% pre-defined and timing based like Super Mario, where if you want to beat the game perfectly you have to know the game so good you initiate the actions before you see them because you already know where they are and what needs to be done.

    Not to mention that they make the false assumption that LCD screens ever display at more then 60FPS/Hz. No matter the Hz rate the screen's don't display any faster, 240Hz is done by flickering the backlight to simulate the framerate of the old filming standards like 24 FPS film and 29.9 FPS broadcast TV. It's just a trick being played on your eyes.

    Yes, I'm fully aware that the human eye can actually detect framerates of over 100FPS, but no consumer gear is designed to use more then 60FPS/Hz.

    Put it this way, if input lag mattered so much nobody would be any good at console games and thats clearly not the case.



    Thats because Larabel has chased off a large portion of his reader base over the years with his lame reporting and bad reviews. Theres a reason that if you post a link to Phoronix on most Linux sites it goes ignored or the poster is denigrated for posting it.

    It's like posting a link to Faux "News" or Prison Planet on any subject as a serious source.



    It's his site, but he is the only face of Linux benchmarking, it's his damn job to not make Linux users look like a bunch of morons. Larabel is the current status quo of Linux benchmarking and he's terrible at it.

    I'm too busy with my work in politics(I'm not a politician, but I have worked for a few, I have no desire to run for office.) to start my own site else I would. it's a 12-18+ hour a day job, I've pulled more then a few 36+ hour runs as well, but I love it. Interesting people, travel a bit, talk with celebrities and other people that most people only ever get to see on TV, learn how things actually get done.(This varies wildly depending on what level or levels of government you are working with and what who is in what seats, most defiantly not a job for those that can't think very fast or have excellent recall. Remember, the staff or activists do the work, the politician sells it to the other politicians or the public.)

    If you are wondering how I find time to post, simple, the work isn't constant and I can remote desktop into my home machine to post. Yes, I run Linux on my work laptop, with Windows7 rarely used in a VM for those times when Wine and ReactOS fail me.

    As before, if you think I'm a fan of anything Microsoft you are sorely mistaken, but the windows review sites are the only ones to go to to find any real information at all about anything hardware related because Larabel is so shit at his job. Not all the sites are paid for, though there are ones where it's stupidly obvious like Tom's Hardware.
    Really now... my Radeon HD 7950 has always gotten 200-300+ FPS in most games on Windows with all settings maxed out at 1080p. You may say that HDTVs flicker black (which 240Hz is actually 120Hz with black which is still more than 60Hz) but LCD monitors, you know, the things people actually play PC games on, don't use that trick. You can buy a 120Hz LCD monitor and it will be a lot more fluid than a 60Hz monitor so long as your GPU is capable of doing it, like mine.

    His benchmarking is fine, it's not like you can go wrong with something as simple as a benchmark. Also, no one cares about your life story.
    Last edited by mmstick; 07-25-2013 at 06:04 AM.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kivada View Post
    Output latency matters for visual fluidity, tearing is not desired at all.

    Input lag is more an issue with the monitor type you are using, but it's not the be all end all that "elite" gamers claim it to be, since most of what they are nitpicking about is at timescales so small that you can't possibly react fast enough to the visual input. I.E. visual data hits eyeball>brain processes visual data and sends command to hand>hand completes action. Thats the way it works since most current games aren't 100% pre-defined and timing based like Super Mario, where if you want to beat the game perfectly you have to know the game so good you initiate the actions before you see them because you already know where they are and what needs to be done.
    I'm not talking about twitch actions. I'm talking about input lag. You see a button, you click the button, but you only see the button being clicked 200ms later. That's input lag. And it's very, very annoying.

    The screen does not matter in input lag. Twitch reactions are different, they are only half about input lag, half about output lag.

  8. #48
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    Nice minimum framerate in OpenArena I doubt it's representative of the actual gameplay though.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmstick View Post
    Really now... my Radeon HD 7950 has always gotten 200-300+ FPS in most games on Windows with all settings maxed out at 1080p. You may say that HDTVs flicker black (which 240Hz is actually 120Hz with black which is still more than 60Hz) but LCD monitors, you know, the things people actually play PC games on, don't use that trick. You can buy a 120Hz LCD monitor and it will be a lot more fluid than a 60Hz monitor so long as your GPU is capable of doing it, like mine.

    His benchmarking is fine, it's not like you can go wrong with something as simple as a benchmark. Also, no one cares about your life story.
    Nope, it's still flickering to simulate a perceived higher framerate. The DVI, HDMI and Displayport connection standards where never designed to go higher then 60FPS/Hz. With the updates for 4K/QFHD resolutions the extra bandwidth is there for the increased resolution and the increase to 10-bit color, not the framerate.

    That your GPU can pit out frames that fast is irrelevant to this fact. The added rendering power is being wasted as heat and power draw if you aren't running detail setting high enough or are not using vSync as at 200 FPS your screen is still only refreshing every 3.33 renders, which can result in tearing.

    Frame latency, minimum framerate and average framerate are the only metrics that matter. Max framerate is completely and utterly pointless since you can measure that by facing a static wall and not moving.

    Quote Originally Posted by curaga View Post
    I'm not talking about twitch actions. I'm talking about input lag. You see a button, you click the button, but you only see the button being clicked 200ms later. That's input lag. And it's very, very annoying.

    The screen does not matter in input lag. Twitch reactions are different, they are only half about input lag, half about output lag.
    Wrong, they are both one and the same, you can't react to what you don't know is happening, the chain of events is constant. If your input lag is so bad try switching to USB, it's sample rate is much faster then that of PS/2 devices. It's that, or your reaction times aren't nearly as fast as you think Spiderman.

  10. #50
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    There is a certain irony in having a person in government politics criticize Michael for being lazy and terrible at his work and for bringing a bad name to Linux.

    Let me ask some rhetorical questions. (Which means I know the answer already, so nobody has to answer them for me.)

    Isn't the entire point of modern government politics to demagogue the opponent, to divide the nation's people, to sufficiently pull the wool over their eyes to garner an implicit consent for the politician's criminal activity? Isn't the entire driving force behind today's politicians a certain psychotic megalomania that dismisses civic duty and statesmanship in favor of personal gain? Is not a successful political campaign regarded as one that makes its public dumb, dumberer, and dumbest as humanly possible? Really, at the end of the day, isn't it true that politics is about tearing down the nation to vault oneself up, and to carve out a lifestyle of power and influence off the backs of the regular working guy, much like a parasite siphons the life from a host organism?

    Maybe Mr. Larabel isn't perfect but if he's making an honest living I'm not sure he's due the shame that's owed a person who's involved in... ohh... let's say... government-sanctioned criminal enterprise.

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