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Thread: Sabayon 13.08 Brings Systemd By Default, UEFI Fixes

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by stqn View Post
    systemd does not deserve any respect… It’s very complex (supposedly to make things work automagically, but guess what… it does _not_ work automagically), complicated to use (writing unit files for everything is not my idea of fun), and broken (restart crashing daemons every second? check! Stall startup or shutdown indefinitely? check! Make it impossible for end-users to access their core dumps? check!); it does not solve any problem (as far as end-users are concerned at least), and it changes behaviour at each release, and changes system settings that it shouldn’t.

    I don't understand why people hate systemd? To the average non-power desktop user (On Arch) it works flawlessly for me anyways. It's a first post, may seem like a troll, but seriously a lot of anger seems to be directed by personal bias, misinformation, and hear say based on early adoption attempts. I don't speak for everyone but the fact I'm not even the slightest bit aware of what systemd is doing, for the desktop that's a win.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    There isn't much of a problem with running systemd and keeping OpenRC files around for compatibility purposes. It's just a bit of unnecessary clutter, but it's fine. To me it seems that the biased viewpoint is mostly due to NIH...
    It's true that it's mostly clutter that doesn't really interfere with anything. However, I think having more control over the init system in Gentoo would be a welcome change for all sorts of users. chroot's, for example, don't need an init system. So why bother pulling in OpenRC when all you need is portage? It would be nice to keep the amount of packages installed on a as-needed basis.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vax456 View Post
    It's true that it's mostly clutter that doesn't really interfere with anything. However, I think having more control over the init system in Gentoo would be a welcome change for all sorts of users. chroot's, for example, don't need an init system. So why bother pulling in OpenRC when all you need is portage? It would be nice to keep the amount of packages installed on a as-needed basis.
    I definitely agree. A few other areas in gentoo suffer from this same problem. It's getting more and more difficult to weed out unnecessary dependencies. And in some cases it's impossible.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonjolt View Post
    I don't understand why people hate systemd? To the average non-power desktop user (On Arch) it works flawlessly for me anyways. It's a first post, may seem like a troll, but seriously a lot of anger seems to be directed by personal bias, misinformation, and hear say based on early adoption attempts. I don't speak for everyone but the fact I'm not even the slightest bit aware of what systemd is doing, for the desktop that's a win.
    I wish I could say that (I’m also using Arch Linux).
    BTW I may have exagerated a bit with my “it changes behaviour at each release”, but I tried to stay objective as far as the rest is concerned…

  5. #15
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    I have fundamental disagreements with that guy.... grrr!

    EDIT: He starts his speech off talking about cooperating with everybody else, but it damn sure looks like forcing his shit on everybody else.
    Last edited by duby229; 08-13-2013 at 01:55 PM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by stqn View Post
    systemd does not deserve any respect… It’s very complex (supposedly to make things work automagically, but guess what… it does _not_ work automagically), complicated to use (writing unit files for everything is not my idea of fun), and broken (restart crashing daemons every second? check! Stall startup or shutdown indefinitely? check! Make it impossible for end-users to access their core dumps? check!); it does not solve any problem (as far as end-users are concerned at least), and it changes behaviour at each release, and changes system settings that it shouldn’t.
    Well, you're misinformed (or living on some outdated information). The single reason why I like systemd is because it's very easy and convenient to use. A lot of things do work automagically, things that don't do that in OpenRC (there are I believe two pages of the Gentoo installation manual that can be skipped if you use systemd). Writing unit files is much simpler and easier than writing shell scripts. Systemd does what you ask of it, so if in your unit file you request a crashing daemon to be reloaded, it will attempt to do so. And it never stalls startup or shutdown, if it happens - one of your programs is at fault, not systemd. And that program does get killed eventually on shutdown, too. It's also quite possible to access logs for users, it just needs a toll that runs journalctl to read the journal on disk, as far as I know. If it changes behaviour, you get notified of it in systemd release notes and in the Gentoo message system. And it doesn't change the settings it shouldn't, it changes the settings you tell it to change or that it requires for the automagic performance.

    Posts like that is probably one of the things that fuel the whole NIH viewpoint, too...

    Overall in binary distributions, it doesn't matter much what init system you use. I rarely have to do anything with systemd in openSUSE, for instance, because all the packages automatically do that for me, and the whole initial configuration was done by the people who made the install disc. But in distributions like Gentoo, where you start nearly from scratch, it makes a lot of difference. I need to talk to systemd very often during setup, or when troubleshooting something on Gentoo, and it's always pleasant. A central place from which you can reboot, suspend, hibernate, see the status and some information about a service at a glance, manage the service state, adjust and synchronise the date and time, set locales, view all the logs at once (or ordered), create and combine timed tasks, etc. And the documentation for all this is excellent. And that's just part of what I personally often get to use, systemd offers even more capabilities than that.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by duby229 View Post
    I have fundamental disagreements with that guy.... grrr!

    EDIT: He starts his speech off talking about cooperating with everybody else, but it damn sure looks like forcing his shit on everybody else.
    Yes... "forcing" because the udev maintainer thought merging with systemd was a good idea. If you want to hate anyone for "forcing" systemd on anyone, blame the udev maintainer, not Lennart.

    systemd is good for consolidation of distros, there's no reason for all the differentations that we've seen over the years.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    Well, you're misinformed (or living on some outdated information). The single reason why I like systemd is because it's very easy and convenient to use. A lot of things do work automagically, things that don't do that in OpenRC (there are I believe two pages of the Gentoo installation manual that can be skipped if you use systemd). Writing unit files is much simpler and easier than writing shell scripts. Systemd does what you ask of it, so if in your unit file you request a crashing daemon to be reloaded, it will attempt to do so. And it never stalls startup or shutdown, if it happens - one of your programs is at fault, not systemd. And that program does get killed eventually on shutdown, too. It's also quite possible to access logs for users, it just needs a toll that runs journalctl to read the journal on disk, as far as I know. If it changes behaviour, you get notified of it in systemd release notes and in the Gentoo message system. And it doesn't change the settings it shouldn't, it changes the settings you tell it to change or that it requires for the automagic performance.

    Posts like that is probably one of the things that fuel the whole NIH viewpoint, too...

    Overall in binary distributions, it doesn't matter much what init system you use. I rarely have to do anything with systemd in openSUSE, for instance, because all the packages automatically do that for me, and the whole initial configuration was done by the people who made the install disc. But in distributions like Gentoo, where you start nearly from scratch, it makes a lot of difference. I need to talk to systemd very often during setup, or when troubleshooting something on Gentoo, and it's always pleasant. A central place from which you can reboot, suspend, hibernate, see the status and some information about a service at a glance, manage the service state, adjust and synchronise the date and time, set locales, view all the logs at once (or ordered), create and combine timed tasks, etc. And the documentation for all this is excellent. And that's just part of what I personally often get to use, systemd offers even more capabilities than that.
    I was about to rip into him...and Emerald beat me to it. So thank you for saving me the trouble haha

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honton View Post
    Sabayon done, Debian next.
    http://meetings-archive.debian.net/p...he_default.ogv

    Go free software, fight software handicapped by contributor agreements.
    So funkStar, please tell us why discussing a switch for Debian to from SystemV to systemd is fighting contributor agreements?

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatEmerald View Post
    Well, you're misinformed (or living on some outdated information). […] if in your unit file you request a crashing daemon to be reloaded, it will attempt to do so. And it never stalls startup or shutdown, if it happens - one of your programs is at fault, not systemd. And that program does get killed eventually on shutdown, too. […] And it doesn't change the settings it shouldn't, it changes the settings you tell it to change or that it requires for the automagic performance.
    This reply shows that _you_ are misinformed.

    I’ll admit that I haven’t had the reload-every-second problem but I’ve heard about it. The rest I’ve experienced first hand.

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