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Thread: Slackware 14.1 Goes Into Beta, Brings New Packages

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by intellivision View Post
    That would explain why they haven't adopted systemd yet.
    Why is systemd bad/unwise/what-have-you?

    This question is not a dig, I simply don't know what the problem is.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    Why is systemd bad/unwise/what-have-you?

    This question is not a dig, I simply don't know what the problem is.
    If systemd would be just another init system no one would care and one could even think about to use it on Slackware (in fact, some users have already ported it and tried it, but the feedback wasn't that good). The problem is that systemd is not just an init system, it tries to be a complete OS in itself, something like "the kernel of the userland", which is against the Unix philosophy of "do one thing and do it good" and against the KISS principle.

    Anyways, both AMD and Nvidia drivers work fine on Slackware.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    If systemd would be just another init system no one would care and one could even think about to use it on Slackware (in fact, some users have already ported it and tried it, but the feedback wasn't that good). The problem is that systemd is not just an init system, it tries to be a complete OS in itself, something like "the kernel of the userland", which is against the Unix philosophy of "do one thing and do it good" and against the KISS principle.

    Anyways, both AMD and Nvidia drivers work fine on Slackware.
    Thanks Vim_User, for the explaination about systemd, and about the AMD.VN drivers.

    I just looked at the deps for systemd on an OpenSuSE 12.2 box. It requires a lot of stuff I would not expect of init - PAM, libkmod, selinux, libaudit. It does seem like a lot of responsibility for the tool that kicks off run level changes.

    I wonder, does it's author have any ties to the American NSA?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    This is just a fake, so that they can tell people "Hey, just use that part" and once you do they make the part you use dependent on systemd.
    Eh?
    Myth: systemd is monolithic.

    If you build systemd with all configuration options enabled you will build 69 individual binaries. These binaries all serve different tasks, and are neatly separated for a number of reasons. For example, we designed systemd with security in mind, hence most daemons run at minimal privileges (using kernel capabilities, for example) and are responsible for very specific tasks only, to minimize their security surface and impact. Also, systemd parallelizes the boot more than any prior solution. This parallization happens by running more processes in parallel. Thus it is essential that systemd is nicely split up into many binaries and thus processes. In fact, many of these binaries[1] are separated out so nicely, that they are very useful outside of systemd, too.

    A package involving 69 individual binaries can hardly be called monolithic. What is different from prior solutions however, is that we ship more components in a single tarball, and maintain them upstream in a single repository with a unified release cycle.
    [1] For example, systemd-detect-virt, systemd-tmpfiles, systemd-udevd are.
    It never mentioned systemd-logind. Then how about the handy portability chart?

    logind:
    Covered by Interface Stability Promise: Yes
    Fully documented: Yes
    Reimplementable Independently: No
    **systemd Implementation portable to other OSes or non-systemd distributions: No
    So yeah...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    See Gnome and logind, which suddenly has systemd as hard dependency (funnily in the same timeframe as Ubuntu started to use logind, what a coincidence).
    Yeah, what a coincidence that at the same time there was a major cgroups changes in the kernel that require you to use single writer for the cgroup hierarchy (systemd in systemd systems) to take use of the modern cgroup functionality and therefore the cgroup handling of systemd-logind was moved to systemd PID1. I'm sure this was all just to piss off Ubuntu...

    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    SIf Slackware is ever forced to use systemd they have demolished the oldest existing Linux distro.
    It's hardly systemd developers fault that there seems to be little intrest in keeping the developement philosophy alive that you happen to like... or at least very few people to do any actual developement. It seems most of the time is wasted in spreading FUD about projects like systemd... with little success (who would have guessed?).


    Quote Originally Posted by Vim_User View Post
    it tries to be a complete OS in itself
    No it doesn't? It provides some core building blocks for an operating system but that's really, really far from trying to be a "complete OS".

    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo
    It requires a lot of stuff I would not expect of init - PAM, libkmod, selinux, libaudit. It does seem like a lot of responsibility for the tool that kicks off run level changes.
    Well one thing Vim_User was right about that systemd is not just an init system so why do you think it's just something that kicks of run level changes? It's a systemd and session manager, it's not called initd, it's systemd because it's a deamon that manages the system. Now the package includes quite a bit of other stuff like systemd-udev that you would probably have installed anyway that has its own depdencies, systemd-logind that replaces ConsoleKit that you would probably have installed otherwise, systemd-journald that can replace syslog that also has its dependencies among various other things. These are separate binaries and therefore separate processes. They however are not usually packaged separately and most of the can't be used independently (see the portability chart).

    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo
    I wonder, does it's author have any ties to the American NSA?
    Seriously, what the fuck? systemd has been completely open source from the start and it has a large developer community behind it. The author is also a long time open source developer and he works for the most prevalent open source company there is, Red Hat.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiiixy View Post
    since = <specific time>
    for = <general time-frame>
    Thanks, Stiixy. I know about that but wrote that message early in the morning and was probably not fully awaken. On the other hand, I must admit writing less often in english and thus doing more and more mistakes while writing. It's bit frustrating to see how quickly you loose practice in a foreign language....

    Back to Slackware, requiring PAM is certainly one of the reasons systemd is still out of Slackware. PAM has been forbidden to enter Slackware long before I start using it for some reason. But Volkerding seems quite adamant about keeping it out.
    I must admit I don't know much on systemd. It seems quite intrusive and I haven't found anything yet that shows it fixes anything worthwhile, though I must admit I didn't look hard. My systems obviously run quite well without it and I don't feel I miss any particularly important features. Any infos would be appreciated.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvdboom View Post
    My systems obviously run quite well without it and I don't feel I miss any particularly important features. Any infos would be appreciated.
    yeah you can work without systemd just fine[less new features ill say later] is just a lot hackier and ugly and error prone, ill get to the point of more info

    Advantages from user perspective

    1.) lots easier to write init files[20 lines for real badass service] very rock solid and less error prone
    2.) habilty to start/stop service ondemand[nginx start only when someone try to access your webpage and goes down after it for example]
    3.) resouce jailing and nice level for service [for example, my nginx should have 512mb ram max, nice 20 and X% of cpu use]
    4.) start service by specific timeframes [nginx is only available each friday from 3am to 5pm] aka no more need for cron
    5.) journald is alot faster than grep[since is indexed] and provide more information than syslog + it can integrate with r/syslog too
    6.) freaking fast boot speed and no more init levels
    7.) don't require VT but it emulate the needed info to start X very cleanly
    8.) easy integration with any session system [ldap,afs,kerberos,radius,unix,AD,etc]

    Advantages from security perspective

    1.) every process or subprocess is tracked correctly from the origin process and are ended properly after main process is gone, aka no more zombie/abandoned processes
    2.) polkit integration allow secure privileges policies per process
    3.) process sandboxing through cgroups
    4.) secure logs per process in journals with the specific privileges used and timestamps
    5.) virtualization aware, yes systemd can tell your an in a virtualized enviroment or not[awesome for devs]
    6.) logind finally a proper and secure session system with a very badass API for devs

    Advantages from developers perspective

    1.) superB API
    2.) finally proper and fast child process tracking, yes no more cat/grep/hacksish PID files/dealing with wild child sisegvs/querying half kernel sys tree to be sure all your child die properly/no more bash-perl hacks
    3.) proper secure subprocess spawn with feedback control and always under your main PID, bye bye exec() [just with this you can nuke the entire startkde/startx/kdm(the process spawn code) code and replace it with 20 dbus calls]
    4.) dealing with services programatically in runtime, aka i can keep a service file in and std::stringlist modify it at will and pass it through dbus to systemd to spawn my processes/services with all the goodies mentioned
    5.) finally proper user session way to acess privileges information and proper policy usage with polkit+logind, aka no more querying ENV vars/pid/xsession info to find out the current user and no more su/sudo hacks
    6.) Runtime log per process id query, awesome for bug reports and is a lot faster than using rsyslog with sql or grep
    7.) secure sub/process de/attach thanks to logind+polkit+cgroups, aka i can from c++ attach gdb to X process and capture the output with 2 or 3 simple dbus calls and in case you need more permission polkit query the user for autorization if needed for you
    8.) hardware info tracking in realtime thanks to udev DBUS api
    9.) easy to query your process information and all childs using DBUS


    there are more features, but so far those are the more meaningful to me, systemd site have more interesting info

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiiixy View Post
    Happy English grammar helper tip of the day for our English-as-not-your-first-language friends;

    since = <specific time>
    for = <general time-frame>

    I've been running Slackware since about 10 years
    I've been running Slackware for about 10 years

    I'm happily running slackware-current since a few months
    I'm happily running slackware-current for a few months

    Better yet;

    I have been happily running slackware-current for a few months



    I've noticed 'since' used quite a lot. Not sure why, just trying to help out a bit for those who would like to speak better generic English*


    Eins, zwei, drei, PROST!

    Thank you

    I thought that saying "I'm using slackware for a few months" would mean that I plan to use it for a few month, but you don't know the date I began to use it.

  8. #18
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    Reading about this on the wider web I learn that the guy who wrote systemd also wrote pulse audio. Pulse was a bit of a stillbirth in the end, it seems he needs glory, so ginned up systemd.

    There's a lot of passive/agressive posts from him in forums where this thing was discussed - anyone not liking it subtly cast as somehow wrongheaded, or primitive, or otherwise subhuman, or merely incapable of understanding systemd's greatness.

    And then here I find teho & jrch2k8 posting omnibus expositions of systemd's advantages. Curiously no disadvantages noted. I am forced to consider the possibility that teho & jrch2k8 are merely cat's paws in a game of propaganda.

    Much like I dislike Ubuntu's use on "one runlevel to rule them all", I don't like the gutting of the system mgmt level of the OS and replacing it with brand new code.

    It's not that init is good because it's old, it's that init is good because there is nothing particularly wrong with it. Nor was there anything wrong with the old session management stuff.

    This is kind of like M$, changing the system middleware in every new release of a server version of Windows. Nothing is really gained by it, and it just means I have to learn a new way of doing the same stuff. I like BASH, I like shell scripts, I like that the UNIX way is text files for config and logging.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    Pulse was a bit of a stillbirth in the end, it seems he needs glory, so ginned up systemd.
    ...or just maybe because the current status of Linux core-os was lacking and he was interested in improving it? The end result was so good that first Fedora, then openSUSE, Mageia, Manriva, Arch Linux, Chakra, Tizen, Sabayon, mer (Sailfish), WebOS-Ports, GENIVI Alliance and numerous other projects decided to adopt it. Both Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7 and SUSE Linux Enterprise 12 are set to adopt systemd later this year and in 2014 respectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    There's a lot of passive/agressive posts from him in forums where this thing was discussed - anyone not liking it subtly cast as somehow wrongheaded, or primitive, or otherwise subhuman, or merely incapable of understanding systemd's greatness.
    Right... I guess you also noticed how clueless people can be about systemd and still spend their time bashing it and Lennart personally. However I'm really curious what comments you refering to here.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    I am forced to consider the possibility that teho & jrch2k8 are merely cat's paws in a game of propaganda.
    Propaganda? Was there something I said that wasn't factually correct? Why do you think so many collaboratively developed and open source projects adopted systemd? Why do you think so many people from various companies and communites contribute to systemd? Is this all just a conspiracy? Seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    t's not that init is good because it's old, it's that init is good because there is nothing particularly wrong with it.
    Only that it's slow, initscripts are complex, there's no proper process tracking, it assumes that the system doesn't change after bootup and so on and so forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    Nor was there anything wrong with the old session management stuff.
    ...and you know this how?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    Nothing is really gained by it, and it just means I have to learn a new way of doing the same stuff.
    I love how you can just dismiss everything that was said to you and say "nothing is really gained by it". I guess that really explains the wide adoption of systemd, even between direct competitors like SUSE and Red Hat. You think they did it just for fun?

    Quote Originally Posted by hoohoo View Post
    I like that the UNIX way is text files for config and logging.
    systemd uses text files for (all) config and you can use syslog with systemd if you want.

  10. #20
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    i think the base problem is systemd attack a problem that most regular can't perceive because most distros have very dedicated packagers, Desktop Enviroments are really good at hidding the problem and ISV have tackled the issue with very bastardic hacks to make things works in most distros.

    Current issues invisible to users:

    1.) bash init file are really complex beast in sysv like systems and for most packages maintainers have to heavily modified them to work well in your specific init system for your distro, aka an openrc init file probably won't work unmodified in upstart and won't work in sysV either without a maintainer wasting hours adapting it.

    2.) startX/startkde+kdm[the thing that start your kde desktop after you log in] scripts are probably the most barbaric example of extreme branching i ever seen to support every init/session system out there "automatically" but still most kde start issues are related to this mammut of script

    3.) KDM well basically every operation check for every possible distro variant in existance, needless to say is damn ugly and slow[gdm ain't pretty either and don't make me talk about xdm]

    4.) most developers out there avoid like the plague any linux specific session code to the point is just easier to make a new session system inside your app than suffer through the nightmare of sysV/VT/ENVs/ConsoleKit, thats why most linux apps that require root access for even a small operation have to run under sudo or spawn separated specific processes as root <-- not exactly secure

    5.) no sane linux developer will ever try to track spawned subprocess, is just impossible to make it work right in every distro. just make a huge monoprocess statically compiled blob and duplicate the subprocesses you need inside your code or avoid to death spawn subprocesses at all<-- not exactly efficient

    6.) make sane installers on linux is impossible, every freaking distro finds amusing have different path for everything important. that is the reason most commercial apps just pick a distro and send everyone else to fly

    7.) syslog is a royal pain in the ass to use from C/C++ without a bunch of layers[mostly DE's] since every distro out there find entertaining to modify default socket path/log paths and to put the sweet caramel touch you have like 4 types of syslog servers + stderr that not always points to the distro log path but to the default <-- in the end many devs just make their own log files and dump them somewhere in /var

    so this make everyone's life in the backstage a living hell but when it reach you[the user] it almost kinda works all togheter in an kinda good enough way, systemd most important and killer features are for those in the backstage and ISV than the users, ofc users get some sweets too but most is going for backstage ppl and devs that at some will allow all that wasted time to go for more useful things for the user

    fixed
    Last edited by jrch2k8; 09-19-2013 at 08:57 PM.

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